Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for evangelical faith??

John said: *but according to scripture, Jesus didn't share your views. We
have to accept this reality as repugnant to us as it may be.*
**
To keep the record clear, this is a load of rubbish*. *Jesus did not
condone slavery; his ethic undermined it. Paul did not condone slavery
either; his ethic undermined it. Within a few generations, the Christian
chruch was spurned by the cultural elites as a "slave religion" because of
its egalitarian posture.

Please don't clutter the archives with more of the sketpics'
misrepresentations about the faith.

On Dec 19, 2007 10:49 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I will desist after this as well as I agree this is getting off topic but
> a few points need to be cleared up.
>
> Solomon Northrup's quote below was not the trope or "rhetoric of Southern
> slave owners" and Dr. Raphael Cassimere is not a "racist", at least to my
> knowledge.
>
> Your other charges are just out of touch and a purely emotional argument.
> That is Ken Ham equivalent. Not to condone or whitewash slavery, but
> according to scripture, Jesus didn't share your views. We have to accept
> this reality as repugnant to us as it may be. And that was my point from the
> beginning, the blessings of God still found their way to America in spite of
> the evils of slavery.
>
> John
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> To: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 10:33:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> evangelical faith??
>
> John said: *and for this particular master life wasn't that bad.... Possibly
> this tempers your perspective somewhat?
> *
>
> John, absolutely not! The "slavery wasn't really that bad" trope was the
> rhetoric of Southern slave owners before the civil war and of racists from
> reconstruction right up through today. Slavery is inherently evil and the
> ideology that supported it was twisted. Denying the evils of black slavery
> in America is akin to denying the German holocaust.
>
> I think we're getting out of ASA-list territory now, so I'm happy to
> continue discussing this off-list. But I want to make crystal clear for the
> public ASA archives that I detest slavery and racisim and that I think black
> slavery clearly disproves the notion that early America was a "Christian"
> nation, if "Christian is supposed to mean following the way of Jesus.
>
> Is it your contention that black slavery in America was acceptable to God?
>
> On Dec 19, 2007 10:24 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > David,
> >
> > This is another non-answer.
> >
> > As grievous and offensive to our modern day senses that slavery is, and
> > I agree it could never be justified by using violence to force someone into
> > it, as far as the institution otherwise, both the OT and NT recognizes it
> > as a form of economic providence however unfortunate and it is still
> > practiced in a lot of countries of the world today, and according to CNN
> > this weekend, it is still practiced today there in New York City.
> >
> > Here is one interesting resource I did read on it and I will defer to
> > you on whether this is of the Ken Ham caliber or not. This was a required
> > reading text of mine in my Louisiana History course taught by a
> > distinguished African American historian Dr. Raphael Cassimere at my alma
> > mater, the University of New Orleans. In it Solomon Northrup who was an
> > educated and literate free black man in the North and was kidnapped and sold
> > into slavery in the South, details his experience with it but at the end
> > makes a stunning revelation that you would never be allowed to see the light
> > of day today.
> >
> > He says that although he had several masters that were evil and that he
> > hated, he also had some kind ones and to one he said that if he had had his
> > wife and kids with him while he was there, he would have been happy to
> > remain a slave to him for the rest of his days, simply because he knew what
> > it was like to make his living as a free man in contrast without someone
> > feeding him and sheltering him, and for this particular master life wasn't
> > that bad.
> >
> > Possibly this tempers your perspective somewhat?
> >
> > John
> >
> > *Twelve Years a Slave (Paperback)
> > *by Solomon Northup<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/102-3420327-2481723?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Solomon%20Northup>
> >
> > "Twelve Years A Slave" is the story of Solomon Northup, an African
> > American who was born free in New York in the early 1800s. In 1841, Solomon
> > Northup was captured and forced into slavery for a period of 12 years.
> > "Twelve Years A Slave" is a captivating narrative of the life of freedom and
> > slavery experienced by one African American man prior to the American Civil
> > War. The book is detailed in its account of life on a cotton and sugar
> > plantation and the daily routine of slave life during the first part of the
> > 19th century.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> > To: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> > Cc: Clarke Morledge <chmorl@wm.edu>; AmericanScientificAffiliation <
> > asa@calvin.edu>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 9:13:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> > evangelical faith??
> >
> > John, I think you've been reading stuff that is to history, law and
> > politics what Ken Ham is to science.
> >
> > On Dec 19, 2007 8:59 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your sanctimonious soapboxing on the evils of America based on your
> > > anachronistic application of today's definition of Christian values to
> > > yesterday avoids the question I originally asked you.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If not by the blessings of God, then why are America and Northern
> > > Europe currently the breadbaskets and powerhouses of the world as opposed to
> > > "less evil" countries like India and China which can barely feed themselves?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The only reasonable explanation is that God is an accomodationist with
> > > us in our politics like He is with us in our science.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> > > To: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> > > Cc: Clarke Morledge < chmorl@wm.edu>; AmericanScientificAffiliation <
> > > asa@calvin.edu>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:34:37 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> > > evangelical faith??
> > >
> > > John said: *The blessing seeking posture and duly instituted
> > > "Christian government" of the British Empire and most of Northern
> > > Europe and early America did seem to make them what they are today as
> > > opposed to most other nations that still developing *
> > >
> > > As a generaly matter, it is extraordinarily dangerous, IMHO, to
> > > project the covenant promises God made to Israel onto any contemporary
> > > nation. After Christ, there is a new covenant that includes Israel as well
> > > as any gentile who trusts in Christ, and the blessings and obligations of
> > > that covenant are experienced in and through the life of the Church.
> > > Nation-states continue to be given authority by God to restrain evil and do
> > > justice (Rom. 13), but there is no longer a chosen nation-state,
> > > politically, genetically, or otherwise.
> > >
> > > More particularly, the "Christian government" idea is a gross
> > > oversimplification of history. In the British Empire, society was highly
> > > stratified by class and was governed only by wealthy white males.
> > > Government monopolies such as the East India Tea Company consipired with the
> > > crown to colonize and repress native people in countries such as India in
> > > order to increase revenues on tea and other products consumed by the
> > > wealthy. I don't think most of those folks were wearing "WWJD" bracelets.
> > >
> > > In 1619, the first black slaves in America were sold at Jamestown. In
> > > 1641, that Christian "city on a hill," Massachusetts, legalized black
> > > slavery. By 1787, the charter of our liberty, the Constitution, applied
> > > fully only to white males. Women were not given the right to vote, and
> > > blacks were not considered people who could be "citizens." In 1857, the
> > > Supreme Court decided the Dred Scott case, in which it affirmed that blacks
> > > are not "citizens" entitled to any rights under the Constitution. The Court
> > > noted that the framers of the Constitution considered blacks "beings of an
> > > inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race,
> > > either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had
> > > no rights which the white man was bound to respect." Blacks continued to
> > > suffer the effects of segregation for more than a century. Again, I don't
> > > see how this reflects "Christian" principles of government.
> > > On Dec 19, 2007 6:53 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > David,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Herein lies one of the thorny problems of TE or any kind of "E".
> > > > Whether you believe we started out East of Eden or from a small population
> > > > out of Africa, at one time all humanity had a level playing field, How then
> > > > do we explain the vast divergence we see now where some cultures are
> > > > literally awash with al the benefits of modern wealth and technology yet
> > > > most of the world lives in poverty? In my mind, the only explanation that is
> > > > not racist has to be spiritual.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We learn from the OT that God instituted some unique and seemingly
> > > > unfair inheritance patterns with the Jews to make sure the oldest son got
> > > > half of the family wealth and the all the other siblings split the other
> > > > half. The interesting twist on this pattern is that it does facilitate the
> > > > accumulation of capital and most would consider this the historic roots of
> > > > modern capitalism. In addition, there are many promises in the OT whereby
> > > > blessings can be attained and curses avoided and there has been a
> > > > correlation between the nations that historically followed those teachings
> > > > and the wealth/technology disparity above.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The blessing seeking posture and duly instituted "Christian
> > > > government" of the British Empire and most of Northern Europe and
> > > > early America did seem to make them what they are today as opposed
> > > > to most other nations that still developing. But granted in America the
> > > > Great American Dream was not all inclusive and was a nightmare for the
> > > > Native Americans or slaves and America is reaping its judgment for this now,
> > > > but in general women and minorities fared no better in other non-Christian
> > > > cultures either. War and genocide and religious aggression appear to be
> > > > common to human nature and not just Christian nations.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So when you speak of opportunity below I am curious to what you
> > > > atttribute as being the source of this opportunity to and whether you are
> > > > lamenting the lack of this opportunity as some kind of faliure?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > *From:* David Opderbeck [mailto: dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:08 AM
> > > > *To:* John Walley
> > > > *Cc:* Clarke Morledge; AmericanScientificAffiliation
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> > > > evangelical faith??
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, until relatively recently it's only been rich white men who've
> > > > had the opportunity, education and leisure to do so. Pretty hard to
> > > > "contribute technology and science to the world" when you're a slave, a
> > > > peasant, or effectively the property of another gender.
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 18, 2007 10:51 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But in fairness, it has been "rich white men" that have contributed
> > > > the most of technology and science to the world of which we are all
> > > > benefactors.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:
> > > > asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] *On Behalf Of *David Opderbeck
> > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 18, 2007 3:51 PM
> > > > *To:* Clarke Morledge
> > > > *Cc:* AmericanScientificAffiliation
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> > > > evangelical faith??
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fascinating. You can find his anti-Catholic book on Google books --
> > > > it seems bizarre from our perspective today, though there are still groups
> > > > out there that spout the same rhetoric. Below are some of his writings on
> > > > slavery. Both his rabid anti-Catholic conspiracy theorizing and his support
> > > > for slavery seem consistent with the views held by many American Calvinist
> > > > evangelicals at the time. The original "Christian America" probably wasn't
> > > > much fun if you weren't a white male Calvinist.
> > > >
> > > > Samuel F. B. Morse (1863).
> > > >
> > > > *An Argument on the Ethical Position of Slavery *(NY: Society for
> > > > the
> > > >
> > > > Diffusion of Political Knowledge, no. 12).
> > > >
> > > > 1. "Slavery or the servile relation is proved to be one of the
> > > > indispensable regulators of the social
> > > >
> > > > system, divinely ordained for the discipline of the human race in
> > > > this world, and that it is in perfect
> > > >
> > > > harmony . . . with the great declared object of the Savior's mission
> > > > to earth" (10).
> > > >
> > > > 2. "If the servile relation is an essential and indispensable
> > > > divinely arranged part of the Social System,
> > > >
> > > > is not the attempt to blot it out altogether by force in any
> > > > community, under the plea that it is a sin, an
> > > >
> > > > evil, a wrong, or an outrage to humanity, or indeed in any other
> > > > place, sacrilegious?" (10).
> > > >
> > > > 3. "Are there not in this relation [of master to slave], when
> > > > faithfully carried out according to Divine
> > > >
> > > > directions, some of the most beautiful examples of domestic
> > > > happiness and contentment that this fallen
> > > >
> > > > world knows? Protection and judicious guidance and careful provision
> > > > on the one part; cheerful
> > > >
> > > > obedience, affection and confidence on the other" (13).
> > > >
> > > > 4. "Christianity has been most successfully propagated among a
> > > > barbarous race, when they have been
> > > >
> > > > enslaved to a Christian race. Slavery to them has been Salvation,
> > > > and Freedom, ruin" (16).
> > > >
> > > > 5. "When the relation of Master & Slave is left to its natural
> > > > workings under the regulations divinely
> > > >
> > > > established, and unobstructed by outside fanatic busybodyism, the
> > > > result, on the enslaved and on
> > > >
> > > > society at large, is salutory and benevolent. When resisted, as it
> > > > is by the abolitionism of the day, we
> > > >
> > > > have only to look around us to see the horrible fruits, in every
> > > > frightful, and disorganizing, and bloody
> > > >
> > > > shape" (17).
> > > >
> > > > B. Samuel F. B. Morse (1914).
> > > >
> > > > *Letters and Journals *(Boston: Houghton Mifflin).
> > > >
> > > > 1. "My creed on the subject of slavery is short. Slavery per se is
> > > > not sin. It is a social condition
> > > >
> > > > ordained from the beginning of the world for the wisest purposes,
> > > > benevolent and disciplinary, by
> > > >
> > > > Divine Wisdom. The mere holding of slaves, therefore, is a condition
> > > > having per se nothing of moral
> > > >
> > > > character in it, any more than the being a parent, or employer, or
> > > > ruler" (2: 331).
> > > >
> > > > 2. "Conscience in this matter has moved some Christians quite as
> > > > strongly to view Abolitionism as a
> > > >
> > > > sin of the deepest dye, as it has other Christian minds to view
> > > > Slavery as a sin . . . Who is to decide in a
> > > >
> > > > conflict of consciences? If the Bible is to be the umpire, as I hold
> > > > it to be, then it is the Abolitionist that
> > > >
> > > > is denounced as worthy of excommunication; it is the Abolitionist
> > > > from whom we are commanded to
> > > >
> > > > withdraw ourselves, while not a syllable of reproof do I find in the
> > > > sacred volume administered to those
> > > >
> > > > who maintain, in the spirit of the gospel, the relation of Masters
> > > > and Slaves"
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 18, 2007 2:27 PM, Clarke Morledge <chmorl@wm.edu > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I recently finished reading David Bodanis' _Electric Universe_.
> > > > Bodanis
> > > >
> > > > gives some biographical information about how Christian faith
> > > > influenced
> > > >
> > > > some of the early electricity scientists/inventors in the 19th
> > > > century.
> > > >
> > > > But one of the disturbing accounts he gives is about Samuel F. B.
> > > > Morse,
> > > >
> > > > the talented painter who patented the telegraph and co-invented the
> > > > Morse
> > > >
> > > > code. Several strikes are made against Morse:
> > > >
> > > > 1. He basically stole Joseph Henry's work on the underlying
> > > > principles of
> > > >
> > > > the telegraph and patented it for himself.
> > > >
> > > > 2. He ran for mayor of New York on a "nativist" platform, the "Know
> > > >
> > > > Nothing" party, protesting against the immigration of
> > > > non-Protestants to
> > > >
> > > > America. The implication is that not only was he anti-Catholic, he
> > > > was
> > > >
> > > > also racist and anti-semitic. Furthermore, he had a peculiar
> > > > conspiracy
> > > >
> > > > theory about how Catholic immigration was a papal/Jesuit plot
> > > > threatening
> > > >
> > > > to undermine American society, and that he developed the telegraph
> > > > as a
> > > >
> > > > means to subvert this threat (Morse's book, "Foreign Conspiracy
> > > > Against
> > > >
> > > > the Liberties of the United States - The Numbers of Brutus").
> > > >
> > > > I also did a little more research on Morse and the Wikipeadia
> > > > article
> > > >
> > > > suggests that Morse had more Unitarian leanings than his famous,
> > > >
> > > > staunchly-Calvinist preacher father, Jedidiah Morse. Samuel Morse
> > > > was
> > > >
> > > > also staunchly pro-slavery, but it might be difficult to hold that
> > > > against
> > > >
> > > > him since there were so many evangelicals during his time who agreed
> > > > with
> > > >
> > > > him.
> > > >
> > > > In a number of evangelical "providentialist" approaches to American
> > > >
> > > > history, Morse is upheld as an evangelical role model; e.g. Stephen
> > > > K.
> > > >
> > > > McDowell's _Building Godly Nations_, or on the AIG website:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v13/i1/morse.asp
> > > >
> > > > And even this perhaps surprisingly positive portrait from the
> > > > Christian
> > > >
> > > > History Glimpses that appear in many church Sunday bulletins:
> > > >
> > > > http://chi.gospelcom.net/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses/glmps099.shtml
> > > >
> > > > But the way Bodanis approaches Morse, holding up Morse as a model
> > > >
> > > > Christian is rather ill fitting.
> > > >
> > > > So which description is correct here: Morse the thief and
> > > > conspiracy
> > > >
> > > > theorist as Bodanis portrays him, or Morse the humble Christian as
> > > > the
> > > >
> > > > "providentialists" argue --- or perhaps somewhere in between?
> > > >
> > > > Clarke Morledge
> > > >
> > > > College of William and Mary
> > > >
> > > > Information Technology - Network Engineering
> > > >
> > > > Jones Hall (Room 18)
> > > >
> > > > Williamsburg VA 23187
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > > >
> > > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

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Received on Wed Dec 19 10:58:01 2007