Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for evangelical faith??

John said: *and for this particular master life wasn't that bad.... Possibly
this tempers your perspective somewhat?
*

John, absolutely not! The "slavery wasn't really that bad" trope was the
rhetoric of Southern slave owners before the civil war and of racists from
reconstruction right up through today. Slavery is inherently evil and the
ideology that supported it was twisted. Denying the evils of black slavery
in America is akin to denying the German holocaust.

I think we're getting out of ASA-list territory now, so I'm happy to
continue discussing this off-list. But I want to make crystal clear for the
public ASA archives that I detest slavery and racisim and that I think black
slavery clearly disproves the notion that early America was a "Christian"
nation, if "Christian is supposed to mean following the way of Jesus.

Is it your contention that black slavery in America was acceptable to God?

On Dec 19, 2007 10:24 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

> David,
>
> This is another non-answer.
>
> As grievous and offensive to our modern day senses that slavery is, and I
> agree it could never be justified by using violence to force someone into
> it, as far as the institution otherwise, both the OT and NT recognizes it
> as a form of economic providence however unfortunate and it is still
> practiced in a lot of countries of the world today, and according to CNN
> this weekend, it is still practiced today there in New York City.
>
> Here is one interesting resource I did read on it and I will defer to you
> on whether this is of the Ken Ham caliber or not. This was a required
> reading text of mine in my Louisiana History course taught by a
> distinguished African American historian Dr. Raphael Cassimere at my alma
> mater, the University of New Orleans. In it Solomon Northrup who was an
> educated and literate free black man in the North and was kidnapped and sold
> into slavery in the South, details his experience with it but at the end
> makes a stunning revelation that you would never be allowed to see the light
> of day today.
>
> He says that although he had several masters that were evil and that he
> hated, he also had some kind ones and to one he said that if he had had his
> wife and kids with him while he was there, he would have been happy to
> remain a slave to him for the rest of his days, simply because he knew what
> it was like to make his living as a free man in contrast without someone
> feeding him and sheltering him, and for this particular master life wasn't
> that bad.
>
> Possibly this tempers your perspective somewhat?
>
> John
>
> *Twelve Years a Slave (Paperback)
> *by Solomon Northup<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/102-3420327-2481723?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Solomon%20Northup>
>
> "Twelve Years A Slave" is the story of Solomon Northup, an African
> American who was born free in New York in the early 1800s. In 1841, Solomon
> Northup was captured and forced into slavery for a period of 12 years.
> "Twelve Years A Slave" is a captivating narrative of the life of freedom and
> slavery experienced by one African American man prior to the American Civil
> War. The book is detailed in its account of life on a cotton and sugar
> plantation and the daily routine of slave life during the first part of the
> 19th century.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> To: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> Cc: Clarke Morledge <chmorl@wm.edu>; AmericanScientificAffiliation <
> asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 9:13:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> evangelical faith??
>
> John, I think you've been reading stuff that is to history, law and
> politics what Ken Ham is to science.
>
> On Dec 19, 2007 8:59 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > David,
> >
> >
> >
> > Your sanctimonious soapboxing on the evils of America based on your
> > anachronistic application of today's definition of Christian values to
> > yesterday avoids the question I originally asked you.
> >
> >
> >
> > If not by the blessings of God, then why are America and Northern Europe
> > currently the breadbaskets and powerhouses of the world as opposed to "less
> > evil" countries like India and China which can barely feed themselves?
> >
> >
> >
> > The only reasonable explanation is that God is an accomodationist with
> > us in our politics like He is with us in our science.
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> > To: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> > Cc: Clarke Morledge <chmorl@wm.edu>; AmericanScientificAffiliation <
> > asa@calvin.edu>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:34:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> > evangelical faith??
> >
> > John said: *The blessing seeking posture and duly instituted "Christian
> > government" of the British Empire and most of Northern Europe and early
> > America did seem to make them what they are today as opposed to most
> > other nations that still developing *
> >
> > As a generaly matter, it is extraordinarily dangerous, IMHO, to project
> > the covenant promises God made to Israel onto any contemporary nation.
> > After Christ, there is a new covenant that includes Israel as well as any
> > gentile who trusts in Christ, and the blessings and obligations of that
> > covenant are experienced in and through the life of the Church.
> > Nation-states continue to be given authority by God to restrain evil and do
> > justice (Rom. 13), but there is no longer a chosen nation-state,
> > politically, genetically, or otherwise.
> >
> > More particularly, the "Christian government" idea is a gross
> > oversimplification of history. In the British Empire, society was highly
> > stratified by class and was governed only by wealthy white males.
> > Government monopolies such as the East India Tea Company consipired with the
> > crown to colonize and repress native people in countries such as India in
> > order to increase revenues on tea and other products consumed by the
> > wealthy. I don't think most of those folks were wearing "WWJD" bracelets.
> >
> > In 1619, the first black slaves in America were sold at Jamestown. In
> > 1641, that Christian "city on a hill," Massachusetts, legalized black
> > slavery. By 1787, the charter of our liberty, the Constitution, applied
> > fully only to white males. Women were not given the right to vote, and
> > blacks were not considered people who could be "citizens." In 1857, the
> > Supreme Court decided the Dred Scott case, in which it affirmed that blacks
> > are not "citizens" entitled to any rights under the Constitution. The Court
> > noted that the framers of the Constitution considered blacks "beings of an
> > inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race,
> > either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had
> > no rights which the white man was bound to respect." Blacks continued to
> > suffer the effects of segregation for more than a century. Again, I don't
> > see how this reflects "Christian" principles of government.
> > On Dec 19, 2007 6:53 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Herein lies one of the thorny problems of TE or any kind of "E".
> > > Whether you believe we started out East of Eden or from a small population
> > > out of Africa, at one time all humanity had a level playing field, How then
> > > do we explain the vast divergence we see now where some cultures are
> > > literally awash with al the benefits of modern wealth and technology yet
> > > most of the world lives in poverty? In my mind, the only explanation that is
> > > not racist has to be spiritual.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We learn from the OT that God instituted some unique and seemingly
> > > unfair inheritance patterns with the Jews to make sure the oldest son got
> > > half of the family wealth and the all the other siblings split the other
> > > half. The interesting twist on this pattern is that it does facilitate the
> > > accumulation of capital and most would consider this the historic roots of
> > > modern capitalism. In addition, there are many promises in the OT whereby
> > > blessings can be attained and curses avoided and there has been a
> > > correlation between the nations that historically followed those teachings
> > > and the wealth/technology disparity above.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The blessing seeking posture and duly instituted "Christian
> > > government" of the British Empire and most of Northern Europe and
> > > early America did seem to make them what they are today as opposed to
> > > most other nations that still developing. But granted in America the Great
> > > American Dream was not all inclusive and was a nightmare for the Native
> > > Americans or slaves and America is reaping its judgment for this now, but in
> > > general women and minorities fared no better in other non-Christian cultures
> > > either. War and genocide and religious aggression appear to be common to
> > > human nature and not just Christian nations.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So when you speak of opportunity below I am curious to what you
> > > atttribute as being the source of this opportunity to and whether you are
> > > lamenting the lack of this opportunity as some kind of faliure?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > *From:* David Opderbeck [mailto: dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:08 AM
> > > *To:* John Walley
> > > *Cc:* Clarke Morledge; AmericanScientificAffiliation
> > > *Subject:* Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> > > evangelical faith??
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, until relatively recently it's only been rich white men who've
> > > had the opportunity, education and leisure to do so. Pretty hard to
> > > "contribute technology and science to the world" when you're a slave, a
> > > peasant, or effectively the property of another gender.
> > >
> > > On Dec 18, 2007 10:51 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > But in fairness, it has been "rich white men" that have contributed
> > > the most of technology and science to the world of which we are all
> > > benefactors.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> > > *On Behalf Of *David Opderbeck
> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 18, 2007 3:51 PM
> > > *To:* Clarke Morledge
> > > *Cc:* AmericanScientificAffiliation
> > > *Subject:* Re: [asa] Samuel F. B. Morse as model or detractor for
> > > evangelical faith??
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fascinating. You can find his anti-Catholic book on Google books --
> > > it seems bizarre from our perspective today, though there are still groups
> > > out there that spout the same rhetoric. Below are some of his writings on
> > > slavery. Both his rabid anti-Catholic conspiracy theorizing and his support
> > > for slavery seem consistent with the views held by many American Calvinist
> > > evangelicals at the time. The original "Christian America" probably wasn't
> > > much fun if you weren't a white male Calvinist.
> > >
> > > Samuel F. B. Morse (1863).
> > >
> > > *An Argument on the Ethical Position of Slavery *(NY: Society for the
> > >
> > > Diffusion of Political Knowledge, no. 12).
> > >
> > > 1. "Slavery or the servile relation is proved to be one of the
> > > indispensable regulators of the social
> > >
> > > system, divinely ordained for the discipline of the human race in this
> > > world, and that it is in perfect
> > >
> > > harmony . . . with the great declared object of the Savior's mission
> > > to earth" (10).
> > >
> > > 2. "If the servile relation is an essential and indispensable divinely
> > > arranged part of the Social System,
> > >
> > > is not the attempt to blot it out altogether by force in any
> > > community, under the plea that it is a sin, an
> > >
> > > evil, a wrong, or an outrage to humanity, or indeed in any other
> > > place, sacrilegious?" (10).
> > >
> > > 3. "Are there not in this relation [of master to slave], when
> > > faithfully carried out according to Divine
> > >
> > > directions, some of the most beautiful examples of domestic happiness
> > > and contentment that this fallen
> > >
> > > world knows? Protection and judicious guidance and careful provision
> > > on the one part; cheerful
> > >
> > > obedience, affection and confidence on the other" (13).
> > >
> > > 4. "Christianity has been most successfully propagated among a
> > > barbarous race, when they have been
> > >
> > > enslaved to a Christian race. Slavery to them has been Salvation, and
> > > Freedom, ruin" (16).
> > >
> > > 5. "When the relation of Master & Slave is left to its natural
> > > workings under the regulations divinely
> > >
> > > established, and unobstructed by outside fanatic busybodyism, the
> > > result, on the enslaved and on
> > >
> > > society at large, is salutory and benevolent. When resisted, as it is
> > > by the abolitionism of the day, we
> > >
> > > have only to look around us to see the horrible fruits, in every
> > > frightful, and disorganizing, and bloody
> > >
> > > shape" (17).
> > >
> > > B. Samuel F. B. Morse (1914).
> > >
> > > *Letters and Journals *(Boston: Houghton Mifflin).
> > >
> > > 1. "My creed on the subject of slavery is short. Slavery per se is not
> > > sin. It is a social condition
> > >
> > > ordained from the beginning of the world for the wisest purposes,
> > > benevolent and disciplinary, by
> > >
> > > Divine Wisdom. The mere holding of slaves, therefore, is a condition
> > > having per se nothing of moral
> > >
> > > character in it, any more than the being a parent, or employer, or
> > > ruler" (2: 331).
> > >
> > > 2. "Conscience in this matter has moved some Christians quite as
> > > strongly to view Abolitionism as a
> > >
> > > sin of the deepest dye, as it has other Christian minds to view
> > > Slavery as a sin . . . Who is to decide in a
> > >
> > > conflict of consciences? If the Bible is to be the umpire, as I hold
> > > it to be, then it is the Abolitionist that
> > >
> > > is denounced as worthy of excommunication; it is the Abolitionist from
> > > whom we are commanded to
> > >
> > > withdraw ourselves, while not a syllable of reproof do I find in the
> > > sacred volume administered to those
> > >
> > > who maintain, in the spirit of the gospel, the relation of Masters and
> > > Slaves"
> > >
> > > On Dec 18, 2007 2:27 PM, Clarke Morledge <chmorl@wm.edu > wrote:
> > >
> > > I recently finished reading David Bodanis' _Electric Universe_.
> > > Bodanis
> > >
> > > gives some biographical information about how Christian faith
> > > influenced
> > >
> > > some of the early electricity scientists/inventors in the 19th
> > > century.
> > >
> > > But one of the disturbing accounts he gives is about Samuel F. B.
> > > Morse,
> > >
> > > the talented painter who patented the telegraph and co-invented the
> > > Morse
> > >
> > > code. Several strikes are made against Morse:
> > >
> > > 1. He basically stole Joseph Henry's work on the underlying principles
> > > of
> > >
> > > the telegraph and patented it for himself.
> > >
> > > 2. He ran for mayor of New York on a "nativist" platform, the "Know
> > >
> > > Nothing" party, protesting against the immigration of non-Protestants
> > > to
> > >
> > > America. The implication is that not only was he anti-Catholic, he
> > > was
> > >
> > > also racist and anti-semitic. Furthermore, he had a peculiar
> > > conspiracy
> > >
> > > theory about how Catholic immigration was a papal/Jesuit plot
> > > threatening
> > >
> > > to undermine American society, and that he developed the telegraph as
> > > a
> > >
> > > means to subvert this threat (Morse's book, "Foreign Conspiracy
> > > Against
> > >
> > > the Liberties of the United States - The Numbers of Brutus").
> > >
> > > I also did a little more research on Morse and the Wikipeadia article
> > >
> > > suggests that Morse had more Unitarian leanings than his famous,
> > >
> > > staunchly-Calvinist preacher father, Jedidiah Morse. Samuel Morse was
> > >
> > > also staunchly pro-slavery, but it might be difficult to hold that
> > > against
> > >
> > > him since there were so many evangelicals during his time who agreed
> > > with
> > >
> > > him.
> > >
> > > In a number of evangelical "providentialist" approaches to American
> > >
> > > history, Morse is upheld as an evangelical role model; e.g. Stephen K.
> > >
> > > McDowell's _Building Godly Nations_, or on the AIG website:
> > >
> > > http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v13/i1/morse.asp
> > >
> > > And even this perhaps surprisingly positive portrait from the
> > > Christian
> > >
> > > History Glimpses that appear in many church Sunday bulletins:
> > >
> > > http://chi.gospelcom.net/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses/glmps099.shtml
> > >
> > > But the way Bodanis approaches Morse, holding up Morse as a model
> > >
> > > Christian is rather ill fitting.
> > >
> > > So which description is correct here: Morse the thief and conspiracy
> > >
> > > theorist as Bodanis portrays him, or Morse the humble Christian as the
> > >
> > > "providentialists" argue --- or perhaps somewhere in between?
> > >
> > > Clarke Morledge
> > >
> > > College of William and Mary
> > >
> > > Information Technology - Network Engineering
> > >
> > > Jones Hall (Room 18)
> > >
> > > Williamsburg VA 23187
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > >
> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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Received on Wed Dec 19 10:34:30 2007