RE: [asa] (evolutionist preachers) Discovery Institute against harmonizing?

The integration of the Christian faith and "evolution" may be more akin to quicksand than thin ice. One is more dealing here of integrations of the historical foundation of the Christina faith and the historical content in "evolution." The issue is not a scientific dispute. If it were so then, what experiment do you setup to settle the issue of which history is truthful and which is not? Perhaps the question of how all that is came about is not yet accessible for us to fathom. Let us face it, there are many mysteries that we will never know since once known they cease to be what they are, elusive. Just like music and love are mysterious and we will never know what they really are makes them both appealing and enriching. If we knew what love and music is, then they would not have the effect they have on us humans.

Moorad

________________________________

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of John Walley
Sent: Sat 12/15/2007 11:57 PM
To: 'Dehler, Bernie'
Cc: '_American Sci Affil'; 'Whorton, Mark S. (MSFC-EV42)'
Subject: RE: [asa] (evolutionist preachers) Discovery Institute against harmonizing?

Bernie,

It has been my experience that evangelism is the first casualty of TE. Not
because TE's don't care about evangelism because I really do but because
once you become a TE, you realize what thin ice you are on with so many
people and you have to tread so carefully so that you don't cause them a
faith crisis that it is almost not worth it. At least for existing believers
anyway. It is natural to want to share your newfound revelation of truth to
all your old friends but it is not as simple as that. After trying with a
few people you quickly get the feeling that maybe they aren't ready for it
and it is not productive to press them with it. Plus because the new
theological implications are so revolutionary and left open-ended compared
to the certainty of OEC, it is real disheartening to most to make the
journey to TE and I have heard some say they almost lose their faith over
it. At least that has been my experience anyway.

On the other hand, I have found the opposite to be true when it comes to
non-believers or nominal believers who are not committed to any ideology
already. For instance at work there is a guy that I know is an evolutionist
and we talk around these issues and have for a long time but just recently
after I went through my TE conversion, I suddenly had new boldness to talk
to him about it and the other day we had a really good chat. He confided to
me that he was raised Catholic and that he still has some twinges of faith
in him and I was able to share with him that his faith and evolution didn't
have to be at odds with each other and that really seemed to be a
revolutionary thought to him. At least he hadn't spent any time thinking
about how that might not be a revolutionary thought. But I would never have
been able to gain his confidence if I was still trying to defend and OEC or
ID position to him since I know now he would have never stood for that.

Besides Collins whom I greatly admire due to his evangelistic zeal, I agree
that you don't seem to hear of too many other TE's out there in evangelistic
circles. TE seems to be a really well kept secret. I hope that Collins and
now Behe will change that some since they are both prominent and popular in
the evangelical church.

Thanks

John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 3:52 PM
Cc: _American Sci Affil
Subject: RE: [asa] (evolutionist preachers) Discovery Institute against
harmonizing?

John, I agree 100%.

Dave Siemens said it may be just the SBC, but I think it is more than
that. I attend a church called "Beaverton Christian Church." I have
also attended "community" churches, "Bible" churches, and the Foursquare
church. Then there's the AoG. I think these all are generally
"anti-evolution" for the reason is that it disrupts the simple gospel
message (created good, Adam sinned).

It makes me wonder... aren't those with the most evangelistic fervor
those who are also anti-evolution? Can anyone name an
evolutionist-believing preacher who also does crusades or evangelistic
meetings? It seems to me that evolutionary beliefs put a big damper on
evangelism, because the message needs to be re-worked and we (TE's)
haven't got there yet.

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of John Walley
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 6:58 PM
To: 'David Campbell'
Cc: '_American Sci Affil'
Subject: RE: [asa] Discovery Institute against harmonizing?

> As advocated within the ASA, TE/EC typically asserts that evolution
has
> little philosophical or theological significance and so is already
> explicitly in disagreement with those who claim that we need to
radically

> modify our theological or philosophical views in light of evolution.

David,

I find the above curious and revealing about the church community you
belong
too. A friend of mine also from AL just recently spoke this week at our
RTB
Christmas party here and referred to presentation as his "TE Coming Out
Party". I mentioned this earlier when I submitted the "7 Words You Can't
Say
in Church".

My experience has been quite the opposite of your statement above. I for
one
have been saying all week that the church needs a radically new theology
in
order to process TE. Ever since the party I have been in email and
in-person
debates with members who are struggling with theological implications of
TE.
I have received numerous questions like the historical Adam, original
sin,
common descent, inerrancy, ad nauseam, simply because this concept is so
foreign to them theologically. In fact, my observation is that it is the
theological filter than prevents them from receiving the scientific
evidence
of TE when you present it to them.

To most of the evangelical church in my world, evolution is the last
line of
defense and the point at which you start finding the limits of Christian
charity. They will barely tolerate OEC and when you try to follow it up
with
TE, then you get responses to the effect of "See I told you he was on
the
slippery slope to evolution with that old earth stuff" and you end up
losing what little credibility you barely had with them in the first
place.
Evolution is the litmus test for heresy and YEC is the gatekeeper to
prevent
it. TE is a theological bridge too far in my world.

In fairness I will say we had several Bio and Chem professors there that
were very complimentary and favorably impressed and one was quite vocal
about it but that was the exception rather than the rule. A more typical
example is one of the Professors from Luther Rice Seminary here which
happens to be Bernie's alma mater, and although he is a brilliant
philosopher and theologian and we have a cordial relationship, we are
just
on different planets on this. The presenter did an excellent job of
delivery and everyone was open to it but it left them in an
irreconcilable
theological quandary.

I think this illuminates the difference between TE in the more
intellectual
denominations as opposed to the rank and file evangelical church body,
but I
don't think your statement above applies across the board.

Thanks

John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David Campbell
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 7:10 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Discovery Institute against harmonizing?

> The problem is, David, that you have not spoken (and from all
indications
> cannot) speak 'objectively' about evolution across the board.

I haven't looked in detail at what was said in the material that the
DI is objecting to. When I say something in a class, I emphasize that
we're talking about a biological process.

> Once you acknowledge the philosophical, theological and sociological
> dimensions of (claims to) evolution, the 'objectivity' of evolutionary
> universalism becomes deeply problematic. Yes, I know this is a
challenge
to
> the theistic evolutionary (TE) views that you and others at ASA
strongly
(at
> least outwardly) espouse. But in fact, it is the same thing with such
a
> view: ASA apears to be against harmonizing with views that are not
TE/EC.

Such aspects certainly exist and deserve attention, but they're not
within the scope of, for example, teaching invertebrate zoology. A
caveat that I am not talking about anything outside of biology when I
am talking about evolution would seem to address what's needed within
that context. However, I don't see how the non-biological claims
seriously challenge TE/EC views. As advocated within the ASA, TE/EC
typically asserts that evolution has little philosophical or
theological significance, and so is already explicitly in
disagreement with those who claim that we need to radically modify our
theological or philosophical views in light of evolution.

Bearing in mind that the views expressed on this list are far from
representative of the ASA as a whole (thus "Many people on the ASA
list" rather than "ASA" is the proper subject for the claim about
harmonization), I'm not sure exactly what harmonization is wanted.
Harmony between those who are less in favor or more in favor of
evolution is possible if they do not see it as an issue of vital
importance. Harmony between those who insist that evolution must be
fought at any cost and those who think evolution is OK is not
possible.

--
Dr. David Campbell
425 Scientific Collections
University of Alabama
"I think of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of clams"
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