RE: [asa] Origins: Francis Collins and ID

IW said:
"If one wants to argue that suggesting God was involved and remains

involved in his creation at all times is a "Gap argument" then why

cannot the same accusation be leveled at every believer on this

list?"

That is an interesting point, but I do want to be sure that I'm not too
quickly jumping to "God did it" in regards to guiding evolution. Maybe
I just can't see the power and evidence of chemicals wanting to combine
and form/create/modify life. The other day I heard Richard Dawkins give
an interesting talk about how we can't understand this stuff because we
are geared to the middle "world" (can't remember the word he used). In
the small world, a proton is like a fly in the middle of a stadium...
lots of empty space, and we think at our middle world that things are
actually solid! Then in the big world, the cosmos, we can't conceive of
these enormous and ancient objects. But our senses and mind work great
in our world, the middle world. I don't understand how evolution can
build complex parts... it almost sounds like I have to "drink the
Atheist kool-aid" to believe that... yet I know about electrons and
protons, and can't really grasp that either. So I'm considering the
part of me that is ID may be not yet up to par on science... or it may
be that science is dismissing the obvious out-of-hand because it is not
naturalistic. I'm perplexed, but don't worry about me... I'm still
studying. I have a reading list still waiting for me, and that inbox is
getting bigger than my outbox... I appreciate the flashes of insight
from you guys in exploring the nuances.

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of IW
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:59 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Origins: Francis Collins and ID

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On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 02:02:25 +0900 PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Dec 3, 2007 11:25 AM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>

>wrote:

I am with Bernie I think. Before I joined this list several years

ago I did not even know what the gap theory was or what half the

acronyms here meant. I have no issue with accepting evolution and

the evolutionary process. However....

>Of course, we can always invoke the guiding hand of God but to

>replace

>our ignorance with an appeal to God runs the risk of a gap

>argument.

Why is the assumption that invoking God's guiding hand is utilized

to explain something we are ignorant on? I do not argue original

sin to explain humanities depravity because outside religion I can

find no decent explanation for that depravity.

If one wants to argue that suggesting God was involved and remains

involved in his creation at all times is a "Gap argument" then why

cannot the same accusation be leveled at every believer on this

list? Why are we believers at all - surely thats just a human

weakness to assign to a deity that which we cannot

define/explain/handle?

If we can be "unscientific" enough to believe in a deity which

cannot be proven through the scientific method then what difference

is that between those who see God intimately involved with his

creation at all times.

I understand that one does not want to simply assume "God did it"

when we run into a moment of ignorance on a topic in science. I

agree that when we get stuck on some point of evolution that we

cannot just turn around and say, "Well at this point God did x and

now we move on to Y which we can scientifically explain".

But I do not see that as the same thing as arguing that God is or

could be intimately involved in his creation prodding and poking

until today. Why should he not? In fact, based on scripture I would

argue that if God is not intimately involved then there is no God

at all. The bible shows a God who cares and is present at all time -

 his work is never finished. And intimate involvement does not

proscribe the idea that God may have been fiddling in his

evolutionary driven creation since the beginning until now. Can we

prove that? No - no more than I can prove God''s existence or

Christ's resurrection.

What are miracles if not direct interventions in the established

system of things?

>Is it necessary that God guided evolution?

Actually, yes - in the sense I am thinking. If not then I would

argue we are theists not Christians. I think the bible is clear

that God did not just create and then stand back to watch us sink

or swim. If God is active in the lives of Christians today -

guiding them and acting on their lives I fail to see how he would

bizarrely be absent from his other forms of creation. What, God is

only half involved? Only works part time?

>Personally, I

>see nothing wrong with accepting that God set it all in motion a

>long

>time ago. What does it mean for God to 'guide evolution'?

The same thing it means when we say God created the heavens and the

earth. The same thing we mean when we say Christ rose from the

dead. The same thing we mean when we say God works in our lives.

IW

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Received on Wed Dec 5 17:24:53 2007