Why is theology secondary to the "reductionist program?"? Why is theology not primary to our epistemology in some sense??
I think it is.? But in our theology, we eventually got to the place where we learned that God isn't going to tell us about gravity, and then at that point we devised science as?the process God wants us to use to continue where revealed theology doesn't go.? In this science we might learn things that require us to go back and re-assess our prior theology, but there is no point in worrying about the things that science hasn't told us about, yet.? So we continue in the reductionism as our primary epistemology in those areas simply because God has chosen not to reveal anything directly.
But you are concerned about areas where the apparent contradictions have already been uncovered.? I think that here, too, that theology is always primary.? But God's revealed theology gives us an epistemology that treats nature as _real_, and which must be treated with is common sense.? Therefore,?the epistemology?God gives us requires that we don't accept theological reasoning contrary to?something we can clearly see in nature with our eyes.? If God had not given us a common-sense epistemology in his revelation, but had insisted that we deny what we clearly see, then the further conclusions of theology beyond that point would seem to be more up-front than what we have today.? But in fact theology actually is up front all the time, insisting that we not abandon our common sense.
By the way, science is simply the process of extending what we can clearly see with our eyes.? Today, the quesiton of numan origins is still a bit murky, but one day it will be seen just as clearly as we can see that Earth is round and moves around the sun.? The idea that science or theological reasoning?-- one or the other alone -- must take precedence in the murky areas is fighting over a thing of very limited value.? That murkiness will dissolve so quickly that its hardly worth fighting over that turf.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
To: philtill@aol.com
Cc: rich.blinne@gmail.com; steven.dale.martin@gmail.com; asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 4:33 pm
Subject: Re: "Hidden" Theological Issues with Theistic Evolution (was Re: [asa] E.O. Wilson "Baptist No More")
Phil said:? So we press on in the reductionist program as far as we can go, and we don't worry what lies beyond the limits of reductionism nor how it may affect the limits of theology.
?
But this is what bothers me.? Why is theology secondary to the "reductionist program?"? Why is theology not primary to our epistemology in some sense?? Indeed, as John Milbank contends (with strong adjuncts in the Reformed tradition), why is theology not the foundation of our epistemology?? This is one of the broader things that bothers me about evangelicals and TE.? It seems that a sort of positivistic reductionism governed by the heuristic of evolution is the unexamined epistemic foundation for the current version of this program, rather than God and His revelation in Christ, in the Word, and in the world.
On Nov 30, 2007 3:42 PM, <philtill@aol.com> wrote:
Also, I contend as I always have that Godel's proofs have given us an amazing insight into the limits of reductionism in physics.? Reductionism? sees physics as acting in the mode of a Turing machine that operates upon a finite set of axioms or initial conditions of reality.? The goal of reductionism is to identify those initial conditions and to identify the physical laws that constitute the Turing machine.? But a Turing machine operating upon a finite set of axioms is exactly where Godel's proof applies (assuming that the axioms are at least complex enough to produce an arithmetic, and indeed arithmetic does appear to be a part of?nature since we can count electrons, for example).?
So, if the present course of scientific reductionism is working with a correct view of nature, then Godel's proof applies to nature.? Note that I'm not saying it applies to our understanding of nature or to science, which is an epistemological question, but that it applies to nature directly, which is an ontological question.? Nature itself cannot be complete and cannot ensure its own internal logical consistency?-- its own being -- if it were the sort of thing that could comply with the reductionist program in physics all the way to the end.? Hence, reductio ad absurdum, the reductionist program in physics cannot be?ultimately successful.? At some point prior to explaining everything, reductionism stops.? There must be an infinite number of axioms required to describe nature, _and_ there must have been an uncountable number of computations performed outside of the Turing machine processes of physics in order to obtain a set of axioms that will be internally consistent.? But
this assumes something exists outside the Turing machine of nature to perform the computations, which cannot be treated by scientific reductionism.
So if ultimate reductionism is not possible, then the whole process David outlines must break down at some point.? But we don't know what that point is.? So we press on in the reductionist program as?far as we can go, and we don't worry what lies beyond the limits of reductionism nor how it may affect the limits of theology.? We don't yet know what those limits are, and whatever lies beyond them will probably be outside the purview of science as long as we live in this universe, unless some alternative to reductionism can be devised, or unless we find some way to describe nature that does not operate as a Turing machine.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Blinne <rich.blinne@gmail.com>
To: David Opderbeck < dopderbeck@gmail.com>
Cc: Steve Martin <steven.dale.martin@gmail.com>; asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 2:31 pm
Subject: Re: "Hidden" Theological Issues with Theistic Evolution (was Re: [asa] E.O. Wilson "Baptist No More")
On 11/29/07, David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com> wrote:
Steve said:? And even if Natural selection *may* have *some* explanatory power for levels above biology, I don't think that necessarily means we are being reductionist.
Yes, I agree, and I'm?ok with that notion.? But what I wonder is whether this is really being consistent in how TE's, at least evangelical TE's, approach the science.? Isn't the truly consistent view to swallow the whole package?? Maybe another way to put it is, why posit a "gap" in evolution at the level of the human mind / soul?? Isn't that imposing an a priori theological view, drawn from special revelation, onto the science?
?
?
I don't think it is necessary to swallow the whole package. If you compare and constrast the TE's gap with ID's gap the one thing that sticks out is the TE's gap is immaterial and thus beyond the explanatory capabilities of science. It is possible to get reductionistic here like Descartes did who said the place where the soul and body merge is the Pineal Gland (because it formed a point and thus appealed to Descartes' reductionism.)? But, I don't believe reductionism is necessary and given the anthropology found in Scripture if you find that you are being reductionistic that should be a warning sign that your?variety of TE?may be on the wrong track. To do so is to as the saying goes is a foolish consistency and is thus the hobgoblin of little minds.
?
One other thing that differentiates the two gaps is one is an argument from silence while the other one is based on a positive statement of Scripture. Gaps are not per se the problem with ID but rather the argument from silence. We should oppose something merely because there are "gaps" -- and I am afraid Collins does this while not seeing his own "gaps". ?If you believe in First Causes like evangelicals do, then there will be gaps. But, because there are also Second Causes some apparent gaps are not really so. If Scripture posits supernatural causation for something -- like it does for the creation of the human soul -- then you are more likely to be correct about your gap then if it does not.
?
Rich Blinne (member ASA)
?
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Fri Nov 30 17:04:40 2007
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Fri Nov 30 2007 - 17:04:40 EST