Re: [asa] St. Andrew & natural theology

No, Paul is not "speaking of another component of natural revelation besides the church." He is not speaking of any "natural revelation" at all. If you read Paul's citation from the psalm first in the context of his discussion in Chapter 10 it's clear that he sees it as a statement about the apostolic proclamation. It's immediately preceded by "What is heard comes through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for" - & then the quotation of Ps.19:4 from the Septuagint. "Their voice" &c then refers to those who speak "the word of Christ."

Note that I am not saying that this was the original meaning of Ps.19:6 in the mind of its writer but this is the way Paul uses it in Romans. This interpretation may seem strage to us but it wouldn't have been to 1st century Jewish Christians, & in any case it is Paul's interpretation. There is simply no debate about that. The fact that the gospel hadn't been preached in the whole world c. A.D. 55 is beside the point. (But it had been preached in a good piece of the Roman world - i.e., the world Paul knew.)

Your problem, John, is that you've latched on to the notion that Romans 1:20 ff validates some natural knowledge of God independent of special revelation & cling to that idea like grim death in spite of the numerous reasons I've pointed out to doubt that claim. You are not paying attention to what the text says. The only purpose Paul gives this "natural revelation" - if we must call it that - is "so that they are without excuse." & when he's concluded his demonstration of the common sinfulness of humanity, he never returns in Romans to any further use of such "revelation" but turns immediately to Christ. His use of Ps.19 in Ch.10 shows that he doesn't avail himself at that point to make any use of the common "heavens declare" notion of natural revelation.

So just give it up. The church is founded on Christ, not Christ plus "natural revelation."

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: John Walley
  To: 'George Murphy' ; 'ASA list'
  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:45 PM
  Subject: RE: [asa] St. Andrew & natural theology

  A very inspiring passage George and I agree we as His disciples are part of His revelation in the earth and have been charged with taking it to the uttermost parts. But at the time when Romans was penned and when Paul said that all humanity already knew "that which can be known" and were without excuse, the gospel hadn't gotten very far out of Asia Minor and to Greece and Rome. Clearly he is speaking of another component of natural revelation besides the church.

  Thanks

  John

  -----Original Message-----
  From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of George Murphy
  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:35 PM
  To: ASA list
  Subject: [asa] St. Andrew & natural theology

  30 November is the traditional Feast of St. Andrew & both the Episcopal & Lutheran lectionaries assign Psalm19:1-6 as the psalm for that observance. (Episcopalians may also include the latter half of the psalm.) This of course is a text that is often cited in support of the possibility of a natural knowledge of God - "The heavens declare the glory of God" &c. But why is it particularly appropriate for the apostle Andrew?

  The answer is in the Epistle suggested for the day, Romans 10:10-18 (or 8b - 18 for Episcopalians). In the last verse of this selection Paul quotes from Psalm 19: "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." But it's clear from the context that Paul is not referring this to any message conveyed by the heavens but to the apostolic proclamation of Christ - for which Andrew is one example (John 1:40-42).

  Shalom
  George
  http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

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Received on Fri Nov 30 13:28:38 2007