RE: [asa] E.O. Wilson "Baptist No More"

": do I argue with the YECs in my church, most of whom are good
Christian people even if I think they are misguided about creation, or
do I become involved together with them in works of justice and mercy
among the poor, marginalized, and unchurched in my community? Did Jesus
spend most of his time on earth correcting doctrine or meeting needs? I
have to confess that my personal record here is very poor, and needs to
get better."

I'd say to do both. Work and fellowship with other Christians, but also
seek the truth and help educate fellow believers. ...learning to love
each other as the family of God...

...Bernie

________________________________

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David Opderbeck
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:36 PM
To: John Walley
Cc: Jon Tandy; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] E.O. Wilson "Baptist No More"

There is a time, place, and manner for confronting these questions
within the evangelical community. I think of Mark Noll's book "The
Scandal of the Evangelical Mind"; and of many other well-reasoned and
irenic books, articles, etc. As a Christian scholar, I identify with
Noll's cri de coeur.

The problem is that sometimes we have a tendency to make this into a
personal crusade, to the detriment of other priorities, our own
spiritual lives, the local body, and our public witness. Maybe I'm just
projecting my own foibles here, but there are times when I feel that my
spiritual life is becoming consumed by this stuff. If I have limited
personal resources, at some point I face a choice: do I argue with the
YECs in my church, most of whom are good Christian people even if I
think they are misguided about creation, or do I become involved
together with them in works of justice and mercy among the poor,
marginalized, and unchurched in my community? Did Jesus spend most of
his time on earth correcting doctrine or meeting needs? I have to
confess that my personal record here is very poor, and needs to get
better.

On Nov 27, 2007 4:30 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

This issue and this same discussion comes up in my RTB Chapter all the
time. People like to wave off the YEC issue as unneccessary division and
a distraction and worth our time to debate it. But the point is truth
matters.

And this is not just an internal debate like some people claim. Infant
baptism and once saved always saved and speaking in tongues are better
examples of internal debates that people outside of the church are
unaware of and unconcerned with. This is at the very intersection of
faith and culture and winds up splashed all over the media all over the
world and in prominent court cases like Dover. And it has serious
consequences for people seeking the truth like Wilson.

I am glad that YEC's don't absolutely require YECism for salvation but
that concession doesn't even count since the words out of the other
side of their mouth say exactly the opposite. The only hope for the
church reaching the world with the gospel is to repudiate YECism first.

John

----- Original Message ----
From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
To: Jon Tandy < tandyland@earthlink.net <mailto:tandyland@earthlink.net>
>

Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:50:31 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] E.O. Wilson "Baptist No More"

Please -- I'm not defending YEC views, and I'm well aware of how they
tie them to the doctrine of the atonement. Dig a little further on
Ham's site, though, and you'll find that they explicity say that YEC
views are not essential to an individual's salvation, even though (in
their minds) such views are foundational to the theology of the
atonement.

Nor do I doubt that in some churches YEC views are so fundamentally
important that no deviation is tolerated. Even in the more "tolerant"
northeast, while no one questioned my salvation when I dissented from
YEC, I was called divisive.

But I don't like this "blame" game. I don't like the implication that
evangelicalism must embrace evolution uncritically to avoid producing
legions of EO Wilsons. For lots of people -- problably most people --
this isn't an issue at all. For those relatively few of us who care
about it, if our response is to earnestly seek after God's truth, there
are lots of resources (ASA being one) and other churches out there.
And, even within evangelicalism, there are currents moving, particularly
in the academy. There are many more people working on this stuff in
positive ways in evangelical schools than we might otherwise think.

On Nov 27, 2007 2:47 PM, Jon Tandy <tandyland@earthlink.net> wrote:

        These are just a few quotes I have in my notes:

                    Ken Ham: "As soon as Christians allow for death,
suffering, and disease before sin, then the whole foundations of the
message of the Cross and the Atonement have been destroyed. ... The
whole message of the Gospel falls apart if one allows millions of years
for the creation of the world."
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1316.asp
<http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1316.asp>

                    Henry Morris: "When one decides to reject the
concept of real [young-earth] Creation, there is no scientific
stopping-point short of what amounts to atheism. ... It [any old-earth
view proposing that God created a universe that really is the age it
appears to be, without apparent age] is essentially an affirmation of
atheism, a denial of the possibility of a real [young-earth] Creation."
(The Genesis Flood, pages 237-238, by Whitcomb & Morris in 1961; similar
views are on page 307 of What is Creation Science? by Morris & Parker in
1987)

                    John Morris: "Any form of evolution and old-earth
thinking is incompatible with the work of Christ. ... If a Christian can
distort Scripture to teach such beliefs as evolution, progressive
creation, an old earth, or a local flood, can that Christian be trusted
with other doctrines? ... Creationism should be a requirement for
Christian leadership! No church should sanction a pastor, Sunday
school teacher, deacon, elder, or Bible-study leader who knowledgeably
and purposefully errs on this crucial doctrine."
http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=1108
<http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=1108>

        Though Ken Ham in this quote didn't call non-YEC "atheism" like
Henry Morris, I'll bet it wouldn't take too much digging (which I
haven't done) to find similar quotes from him. Isn't destroying the
foundation of the Atonement akin to atheism, and thus damnation?

        In fact, I decided to do a couple minutes of digging and found
at least one further quotation from Ken Ham:

        "The god of an old earth cannot therefore be the God of the
Bible who is able to save us from sin and death....There's no doubt -
the god of an old earth destroys the Gospel."
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i4/oldearth.asp

        Jon Tandy

                -----Original Message-----
                From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:
asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu> ] On
Behalf Of David Opderbeck
                Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:24 PM
                To: D. F. Siemens, Jr.

                Cc: john_walley@yahoo.com; asa@calvin.edu

                Subject: Re: [asa] E.O. Wilson "Baptist No More"

                I went to a very conservative "independent" baptist-type
church for many years where the leaders were YEC. Never was it
suggested that there was a choice between YEC and "damnation." Even AIG
doesn't say this. Maybe that is the case in some churches, but let's
not overstate it.

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Tue Nov 27 17:48:32 2007