Re: [asa] Romans 1:20

John -

With all your harping on Romans 1:20 you still seem unaware that the evidence for God that Paul speaks of there has a purely negative role: "So they are without excuse." Any claim that this even plays a part in leading a person to Christ in any positive way is DOA. When Paul does come to speak of Christ in Romans 3:21 ff he makes no appeal at all to a natural knowledge of God but simply proclaims Christ who is "attested by the law and the prophets" as the one God put foreward to make atonement.

I have no idea where you got the notion that my theology means that a person comes to Christ by "just one day hav[ing] a divine vision of
Christ and He was revealed to you in all His glory." People comes to Christ through the means of grace, Word and sacraments. Those are the means that the Holy Spirit normally uses. That is not to says that observations of the world & reason can play no role in conversion but they are secondary.

It is particularly inept for you to suggest that my theology involves Christ being revealed "in all His glory." Please do not make assertions about my theology till you have some idea what that theology is. There's plenty on my website, in PSCF articles & other resources where you can find out about it. The fundamentals of my theology are not my personal property but are the confessional position of the Lutheran tradition - cf. the Augsburg Confession & the Small Catechism. In the latter, e.g., in explanation of the 3d Article of the Creed:

    "I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true."

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Walley" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
To: "'George Murphy'" <gmurphy@raex.com>; "'David Campbell'" <pleuronaia@gmail.com>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:40 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Romans 1:20

Of course the Holy Spirit testifies to Christ, but it is a process, with
many signs and wonders along the way, the heavens declaring the glory of God
and the invisible things of God seen in creation being among them, just like
the scriptures say.

In your own testimony George, did you just one day have a divine vision of
Christ and He was revealed to you in all His glory like you assert in your
theology or more likely did you grow into it piecing together facts and
rational deductions and observations and confirmations from the natural
world along the way? I know that was my experience and I suspect similar to
many others as well.

Jesus answered a scribe in Mark 12:32-34 and said "You are not far from the
Kingdom of God". But Jesus seemed to be ok with the fact that he wasn't
there yet and he didn't have to get there all at once. This could possibly
the case with Davies, Hoyle etc.

How can you deny that Flew's conversion to theism is the work of the Holy
Spirit? He is not going to get straight to Christ without passing through
these intermediate steps along the way. And even if he never does it doesn't
prove it still wasn't the work of the Spirit. But it is ridiculous to say
that because he isn't all the way there yet that it wasn't God trying to get
him there.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: George Murphy [mailto:gmurphy@raex.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:13 PM
To: John Walley; 'David Campbell'; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Romans 1:20

The claim that "this is obviously the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives
of these unbelievers working on them in conjunction with the teachings of
this passage" is hardly clear. Does it mean that the Holy Spirit together
with Rom.1:20 has led Davies et al to infer a designer? If so, it's false:
There is no evidence that Rom.1:20 has played any role in their thinking.

But most importantly, the claim their inference is the work of the Holy
Spirit, in the distinctive way in which the NT speaks of the Holy Spirit, is

baseless. The Spirit testifies to Christ, not to a generic "designer." Cf.

John 15:26, 16:14, I Corinthians 12:3 &c.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Walley" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
To: "'David Campbell'" <pleuronaia@gmail.com>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Romans 1:20

What has been conspicuously absent from this thread on Rom 1:20 and natural
revelation is any substantive response to the fact that many secular
non-religious types like Davies and Hoyle and Flew all infer a designer from
nature.

Since this is obviously the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of these
unbelievers working on them in conjunction with the teachings of this
passage, it should be obvious that it is counterproductive to try to erect a
theology against it.

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Received on Wed Nov 14 08:18:03 2007