Re: [asa] ORIGINS: (best evidence for evolution) pseudogenes are overwhelming evidence for evolution...?

What is wrong with the fossil record and the great age (of strata)?

Michael
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Dehler, Bernie
  To: asa
  Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:14 AM
  Subject: RE: [asa] ORIGINS: (best evidence for evolution) pseudogenes are overwhelming evidence for evolution...?

  Don Winterstein said:
  "By far the strongest evidence for evolution has always lain and continues to lie in the fossil record and the great ages it implies. "

  I disagree (for me, anyway). I've been following this creation/evolution controversy for many years,,, and it always seems (on the surface) to be very questionable. as if both sides have very good scientific evidence. I was an old young earth creationist (a combo of the OEC and YEC views ;-)

  Since reading Collin's book, and appreciating that he's a born-again Christian, and seeing him state the evidence regarding pseudogenes and human/ape chromosomes, I have come to a variation of the TE theme. It's a radical shift. all because of the biological evidence. If special creation is true, there would be no copies of junk from other life-forms... I'm convinced of that.

  Because of the biological evidence, I'm now more readily willing to accept the fossil evidence and traditional scientific interpretation.

  I have a Masters in Ministry degree from Luther Rice Seminary (www.lru.edu). just got it this year. We had a class called "Worldviews and Origins." They pretty much assumed a YEC position, and a textbook for worldviews was Nancy Pearcy's (Discovery Institute) "Total Truth." We also learned the basics of DNA and the marvels of protein synthesis in class (these complex designs and process prove God's working). This biology was a start for me, I then graduated, then read Collin's book. I have a deep respect for Collins because of his scientific knowledge and Christian service/thinking, so it carries tremendous weight for me. YEC's (and Phillip Johnson) seems to say that modern scientists are only believing what they do because of their atheistic worldview. I think people like Collins demonstrate that to be false.

  So for me, the biological evidence of pseudogenes and human/ape chromosomes ("biological fossils") became the evolution dam that was breeched, and now I'm being swept away by the flood. It was hopeless for a while, but people like Collins and groups like ASA have been rescuers for me. My house was on fire. now it is being remodeled. The fires have all been put out, and I'm looking for design advice and picking colors now ;-) Sorry for the mixed metaphors, but they both fit well ;-)

  .Bernie

  www.sciligion.org

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  From: Don Winterstein [mailto:dfwinterstein@msn.com]
  Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 5:17 AM
  To: asa; Dehler, Bernie
  Subject: Re: [asa] ORIGINS: pseudogenes are overwhelming evidence for evolution...?

  "Is it true there is no serious response from young earthers or old earthers to the claim that pseudogenes are overwhelming proof for evolution?"

  By far the strongest evidence for evolution has always lain and continues to lie in the fossil record and the great ages it implies. Without this evidence for massive change in life forms down through long ages, the theory of evolution wouldn't stand a chance. Pseudogenes would be mere unexplained curiosities.

  However, given the compelling evidence for both great age and great change, the DNA contribution becomes meaningful and forceful.

  Don

    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Dehler, Bernie

    To: asa@calvin.edu

    Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 10:02 PM

    Subject: [asa] ORIGINS: pseudogenes are overwhelming evidence for evolution...?

    Hi all-

         I'm new to this group (and ASA), so I hope I'm not bringing up something already discussed in great detail. If so, maybe you can direct me to the log.

         In my recent studies on the origins debate, it seems to me that there is "overwhelming evidence for evolution" via pseudogenes. These are genes present and functional in lower life forms, yet we have messed-up (nonfunctional) copies of them. There are supposed to be thousands of pseudogenes in the human genome. Humans and apes have these messed-up copies, but not lower life-forms. Since we share the messed-up copies with apes, we can't say that it is from the fallen human nature, as apes also have them messed-up while lower lifeforms don't. A prime example is supposed to be ascorbic acid (vitamin c).

         Hugh Ross, in his book "Who was Adam" explains the technical details well, and ends up saying there is no "old earth" response (since old earth is against evolution). no response yet, anyway. Young earther's also don't seem to have a response to this argument.

         It seems to me that we have to accept this evidence for evolution. just as we have accepted evidence from Copernicus/Galileo regarding a heliocentric solar system.

         Question: Is it true there is no serious response from young earthers or old earthers to the claim that pseudogenes are overwhelming proof for evolution?

         Then again, there's also the biological evolutionary evidence based on chromosomes. Humans have one less chromosome than apes, and it can be seen that the reason why is because two ape-like chromosomes have joined into one for human. This joint is obvious. Again, any good young earth or old earth responses?

         Both the pseudogene and chromosome evidence for evolution were cited as evidence by Dr. Francis Collins in his recent book.

         By the way, I'm on the mailing list for Liberty University. They claim there is no compelling evolutionary evidence. Check out this quote:

    Dr. David DeWitt, Liberty University professor of biology, wants to help Christians understand the nature of creationism and teach them how to ably counter mainstream arguments.

    His new book, "Unraveling the Origins Controversy," is a crash course in biblical creationism and examines assumptions on both sides of the origins debate with clear biblical teachings.

    The veteran professor, who is director of Liberty's Center for Creation Studies, notes that there are new scientific findings in terms of the earth's foundations almost every day and Christians need to have a framework for understanding these alleged evolutionary breakthroughs.

    Dr. DeWitt, who recently received a large National Institutes of Health grant to support his Alzheimer's disease research, said, "We live in the same world and use the same facts as evolutionists. We simply use different assumptions and reach creation conclusions."

    Included in Dr. DeWitt's scientific refutation of evolutionary theory, he incorporates Scripture throughout his book to support the science of creationism. He believes the value of his book is that it is written by a scientist who integrates up-to-the-minute findings with a biblical worldview.

    Asked if there is any argument an evolutionist can make that a creationist cannot effectively answer, Dr. DeWitt smiled wryly and offered a simple, "No."

    "We have nothing to worry about in defending our beliefs," he confidently stated.

    .Bernie

    www.sciligion.org

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Received on Mon Nov 5 02:46:21 2007