Re: [asa] D'Souza vs. Hitchens - Surrending the debate

 I don't see how different beliefs provide different species.?

As for the rest, the "Christian view" is an interpretation of the Bible.?
No matter how you slice it the Bible must be interpreted.? No two
people could ever read the whole Bible front to back and come up
with the same interpretation of every passage, parable and law.?

Many adopt a common interpretation that is steeped in history
and tradition and elevated by the deliberations of truly great minds,
but accepting such interpretation is accepting the beliefs of other
men about the word of God and not taking the word of God completely
in hand and wrestling with what it means to you alone, every word.?

-Mike (Friend of ASA)

-----Original Message-----
From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
To: mlucid@aol.com
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 1:48 pm
Subject: Re: [asa] D'Souza vs. Hitchens - Surrending the debate

Interesting! Since different beliefs provide different "species," Animists,
Hindus, Buddhists, Parsees, Shintoists, Bahai, Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc.
must be different species. Since conversion is possible, the transmutation of
species is fairly common.

?

Consider that we've had millennia of philosophy, centuries of science, and,
if the Christian view is correct, millennia of revelation. This gives
opportunity to refine our views--or to bollix them thoroughly. The Protestant
view is clear that the new birth and the indwelling Spirit provide something
very different than was available to the worshipers of the One claiming to be
the only true God before the Incarnation. What difference did that make in terms
of preserving JHVH's worship? In spite of the severest condemnation of those who
deviated from that worship, Israel followed idols apparently more than God. Was
stoning and extermination necessary under the conditions of the ancient world?
Is the situation that much different, though with different motivation, with
Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Muslims who hold that conversion is a capital
offense, etc.?

Dave (ASA)

?

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:02:17 -0400 mlucid@aol.com writes:

  
Genetically the human of the
  Old Testament are virtually identical to the
humans of the New
  Testament.? But their knowledge of God was a world
apart, just like
  ours is different from those alive when Jesus lived.? Most
  
dramatically those alive five thousand years ago did not know Jesus did
  they??
That alone makes a world of difference with respect to their
  knowledge of
God. But more to my point, the intuitive outlook of Old
  Testament men on
the nature of God was what I imagine to be fairly idiotic
  in terms of
anthropomorphizing God.?

The Old Testament Gods
  of Israel are all over the map of lower order human
emotions like
  vengeful, demanding, jealous etc.? That men of that time needed
a God
  that was thus disposed is fairly certain in my mind.? But that modern
  
humans need to see God as the Old Testament God is not at all
  certain.?
By the time Jesus began to set things a little straighter
  God was seen in
terms of much higher order emotions like forgiving and
  merciful etc.? While
God does not change, we do.? We
  evolve.? We grow ever smarter and ever
more intuitive of the miracle
  of creation and Creator and I am willfully evolving
the character of my
  faith and the nature of my understanding of God away
from the Old
  Testament Gods? in what I believe to be greater compliance to
how
  Jesus depicted the New Testament God.?

Taking it one more step, I
  see my own vision of God as something that
will be seen as laughably
  anthropomorphic to humans five thousand years
from now and I try to see
  God in THAT light.? What is my responsibility
to elevate God in my
  own eyes?? What is my responsibility to evolve
my appreciation for
  the transcendence of God beyond my current place
of inherent
  ignorance??

However I rationalize God will be wanting no matter
  what I do.? But how I
feel about God in my life is not so
  wanting.? So I let my feelings, my
faith, my instinct for God take a
  greater hand in my life.? I think a humble
man or woman who holds in
  their mind the notion that we can never
rationally envision God in
  adequate terms, can, in further pursuit of their
faith, feel God in our
  hearts in a way that shows to us our blindness.? I am
a big believer
  in the feelings, intuition, heart, and the Holy Spirit over the
context
  restricted "certainties" of the rational mind.?

As for worshiping
  a goat?? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure no one
worships the actual
  animal.? Maybe some kind of transcendent symbol that
is in the form
  of a goat, perhaps, or like the cows of the Hindus, worshiping
life in the
  form of the stable system of animal husbandry that sustained them
for
  centuries, but I don't think anyone actually worships the actual
  animals.?
Maybe they hold them in reverence, but, heck, I hold all of
  God's creation
in a real and constant reverence, particularly animals
  because they're
kinda like us before the Fall.?

But, as an
  imperfect sinner I am very reluctant to condemn anyone or
anything that is
  trying to worship.? Anyone who places an external deity
over their
  own volition is acknowledging God.? And God is God.? And anyone
  
who worships the God of Abraham is unambiguously worshiping the same
  
God I do.? Do I condemn them?? Not me.?

When books
  have been written in the name of God and people condemn
each other for
  believing in different books about the same God, I become
very leery of
  those who condemn the other book.? How can a human being
know the
  difference when they are raised to believe the Koran and with
love in
  their hearts and humility in their minds do everything they can
to adhere
  to its tenets??

I don't dare condemn anybody for false
  worship.? I'll condemn them for
corrupting worship or
  corrupting? the belief of others in pursuit of their own
designs,
  especially if they become physically coercive, but not for being
different
  from my own.? Not me.

If someone has the same faith as I do,
  however, I will feel much better
about trying to judge the relative merits
  of our rational translation (words)
of our faith because we are both much
  safer from corrupting each other in
the process because we are so close to
  the same belief to begin with.?
But I will not judge Wiccans among
  Christians, much less condemn them.?

-Mike (Friend of
  ASA)

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Received on Thu Nov 1 15:35:05 2007