Re: [asa] Global Anti-Darwinism

Comments below in red.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Gregory Arago
  To: Terry M. Gray ; AmericanScientificAffiliation ; rjschn39@bellsouth.net ; David Opderbeck ; gmurphy@raex.com
  Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 9:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [asa] Global Anti-Darwinism
  .....................................

   
  With regard to George's first point, I personally do not concur with the view that "'Darwinist' and 'Darwinian' [both] imply an ideology, not a scientific theory." How can 'Darwinian theory' be considered as un-scientific? I don't see why Darwin's theory is not a scientific one! Isn't the label 'Darwinian' consistent with 'the theory that Darwin put forth'? To me Darwin's general theory, based on a vast collection of evidence and innovative logic, was a scientific one.

  Please excuse my slip - I meant to write "Darwinism" rather than "Darwinian." The latter, an adjective, can refer to a specific scientific theory, "Darwinian evolution" &c, without being ideological. I think though that "Darwinism" does usually suggest an ideological component - at least in science-religion discussions. So I pretty much agree with your next paragraph.
   
  I have said: "Distinguish the 'science' from the 'ideology' and we're getting somewhere: (neo)Darwinian vs. (neo)Darwinism." Yet there seems no willingness by biologists on a grammatical level to accept this (i.e. exactly Terry's admission above). Sure, some proper names fit better than others with 'ian/ean' and 'ism' prefixes, while others involve no ideological components at all. But let us almost all agree: the term 'Darwinism' (as distinguished from 'Darwinian') is semantically ideological.
   
  I am fully in agreement with both Terry and George that D. O'Leary is basically numb, as are many IDists, to the distinction between (neo)Darwinian evolution and Darwinism. The fact that her blog is called 'post-Darwinist,' yet when asked cannot specify what 'post-Darwinist' means in her own words, shows the ideological, propagandist position she has adopted. After all she is not a scientist, but a journalist (granted: ASA with its TE tendencies does not generate anywhere near the amount of public curiosity that the IDM has). The recent conference on 'Design vs. Darwin' is yet another obvious example. Why such polemics? Is it in keeping with the American tradition of 'evolution vs. creation'? Do they honestly not realize that evolutionary theory has changed since Darwin's time in the 19th century? Do they find no merits in Darwin's contribution to scientific knowledge, especially given that many IDists are also accepting evolution, even they are also 'evolutionists' to one degree or another?

  I think that a large part of the problem of terminology & the affect evoked by various terms here has to do with the status that has been given to Darwin. He is demonized and spat upon by many anti-evolutionists and (partly in reaction) apotheosized by those who accept his theory & even more by those who accept the ideology that has become associated with that theory.
  ...................
  "There is a Darwinist ideology but you're right - the proportion of Christians who accept evolution who are Darwinists in that sense is quite small." - George
   
  I'm a bit confused by this statement, as I read it backwards. Does it mean you are suggesting that Christians or other religious thinkers might accept evolution, but no longer accept the Darwinian theory of evolution in its entirely? Does it mean that you agree that the number of people who call themselves 'Darwinists' at ASA must be 'amazingly small'? I would guess only PvM is a Darwinist; even Terry is not a Darwinist, nor is Michael Roberts, even if they have all due respect for Darwin's contribution to natural science and psychology.

  Certainly I think people can accept evolution, & even Darwin & Wallace's mechanism as an important step toward its explanation, without accepting "Darwinian evolution" as the last word on the subject. As to how many ASAers would call themselves "Darwinists" - well, they'd have to be polled. & we'd also have to ask whether they're using the word to refer simply to a scientific theory, in which case quite a few might accept the designation, or an ideology, in which case (I think) few would describe themselves that way.
   
  'Evolutionism' imo is a much broader ideology than Darwinism. The concept of 'evolution' predates Darwin and is used in fields of study far beyond where Darwin applied it (e.g. reading recently A. Comte's usage of 'evolution' in 1824). Darwin's (co-coined concept duo) 'natural selection' was admittedly ambiguous in regard to agency and causality; in social-humanitarian realms it makes more sense to speak of 'human selection' than 'natural selection.' That is, unless all persons are inevitably naturalists; assuming that natural explanations account for all there is in our universe. But it seems obvious that neither Terry nor George would accept the label of 'naturalist' according to such a reading. This is what returns me again and again to wondering how a Christian natural scientist can accept the label of 'naturalist' without at the same time contradicting their theistic beliefs. Ironically, this is where the i+d argument is also met, and where it doesn't seem to me that a balance has yet been reached in the American science and religion discourse.

  We went over the whole nature/naturalism &c issue back in January without accomplishing a great deal. If you wish I can resend my final post on that.

  I agree with your 1st sentence. However, "Darwinism" seems to be the term of choice nowadays for both as a weapons for anti-evolutionists and for most adherents of an evolutionary ideology.
   
  People can accept evolutionary theory without being Darwinists, da, perhaps. But can people accept Darwinian theory without being evolutionists? This is imo the more important question.

  Yes.
   
  George writes: "I think that evolution is a process through which the Holy Trinity works (thus, en passant, getting past the mere theism of theistic evolution."
   
  Well, I'd love to play chess one day with George! The above quote is an open admission of what seems to be a kind of 'evolutionary theology.' As for my tastes, I have rejected the philosophical inversion made by A.N. Whitehead, who is the main figure behind process-oriented thought in America (please someone do tell of who is more significant to process-thought than Whitehead!). It is all too focused on what changes rather than on what stays the same for my liking. But it is indeed a contemporary position to be a 'process theorist,' i.e. evolutionarily adjusted, so I applaud George's contemporaneous thinking.

  I'm a poor chess player. But that aside, you're reading far more into my statement than I intended, perhaps because I used the word "process." I said that evolution is a (not "the") process through which the Holy Trinity works (not "of which the Holy Trinity is a part.") I am not a process theologian - though I do not (like some) think that all process theology is of the devil. & to the brief statement about God's creative activity through evolution, I would have to add quickly that God has indeed become part of the evolutionary process (& more broadly, a participant in cosmic history) through the Incarnation. But that isn't process theology - it's Jn.1:14 with science helping us to understand sarx.
   
  George also writes: "there is not the remotest chan[c]e that the reality of descent with modification will be abandoned, & in that sense evolution isn't going to go away."
   
  Here we are in agreement, and it seems this is a topos where Ted, Michael, David, Dave, George, Terry, Randy, myself and others can all come to. Thankfully they will no longer be scolding me or wrinkling their brows at me on this issue. :-) 'Descent with modification' need not be abandoned, though evolution can be SHRUNK from its current ideological mantle of universal (i.e. including social-cultural) evolution, the likes of which drive the Dennett's, Dawkins' & de Chardin's of the worlds' rhetoric. Tuck evolution into its legitimate tiny corner of scholastic relevance and you will find no problem from the plethora of other disciplines that have been contaminated and even plagued by the process-oriented ideology of evolutionary social-humanitarian thought.

  I do not at all agree with the linkage of Teilhard with Dawkins & Dennett.
   
  Just as a question of history and creativity: does anyone know you coined the concept duo 'evolutionary creationist' if it was not D. Lamoureux? It is doubtful that the word simply 'evolved' into existed without human agency/selection being involved.
   
  Respectfully yours,
   
  G. Arago

  "Terry M. Gray" <grayt@lamar.colostate.edu> wrote:
    Gregory,

    We've been over this before. I, and I think most biologists, would
    just disagree with you here. Darwinism is not necessarily an
    ideology. You're putting way too much stock in the "-ism" suffix.
    I've admitted that it can be an ideology, and I've admitted that it
    may be useful to have different words to describe the ideology from
    the scientific theory, but common parlance resists such.
    Consequently, I may call myself a Darwinist and be referring only to
    the scientific theory. In truth I think that Darwinism (as a
    scientific theory) is inadequate--I think that there are many non-
    Darwinian mechanisms at work in the evolutionary process.

    For what it's worth, I don't really think Denis coined the term
    evolutionary creationist. While he's been an active promoter of the
    term and a key spokesman for it in the past decade, he's a relative
    newcomer. I'm sure Denis will find my pointing this out somewhat
    amusing.

    TG

    With respect to Gregory's remarks below -

    1) "Darwinist" and "Darwinian" imply an ideology, not a scientific theory. Nobody calls people who accept, & even work on, special or general relativity "Einsteinists." Even for those who think that those theories have implications that extend beyond physics are not considered adherents of "Einsteinism." There is a Darwinist ideology but you're right - the proportion of Christians who accept evolution who are Darwinists in that sense is quite small. Unfortunately the term is thrown around by (a) Darwinists pretend that people can't "really" accept evolution unless they accept the ideology and (b) the anti-evolutionists who identify everyone who accepts evolution as a Darwinist. This is, for example, the practice of Ms. O'Leary, as evidenced by her wretched UD piece which was discussed here recently.

    2) "Evolutionary creation" is a better term than "theistic evolution" but the latter term is better established & thus not likely to be changed. (Think, e.g., of futile attempts to come up with a better term than "big bang.") But how much difference does this really make? Do we really need a specific label for our positions on each of the issues in the theology-science dialogue? Am I a theistic expanding universist? If asked my position on the issue of creation & evolution, I'll state it briefly - I think that evolution is a process through which the Holy Trinity works (thus, en passant, getting past the mere theism of theistic evolution.

    3) Scientific theories change of course, & it's likely that in the future many aspects of our current evolutionary theories will be superseded. But there is not the remotest change that the reality of descent with modiffication will be abandoned, & in that sense evolution isn't going to go away. There's about as much chance of that as of new discoveries in geophysics bringing about a resurgence of flat earth theories. (& I say that as an expelled member of the International Flat Earth Research Society!)

    Shalom
    George

    On Apr 21, 2007, at 3:36 PM, Gregory Arago wrote:

> If for only the reason that today while fostering a broad discssion
> titled, "Global Warming, Ecology, Creation and Evolution" for about
> sixty students from 9 countries, and on one of the slides I showed
> "The Creation of Animals" by Tintoretto, which is featured atop the
> Economist article, let me add a comment or two on this grand-global
> topic of anti-Darwinism.
>
> Honestly, how many people at ASA would call themselves a
> 'Darwinist'? The number must be amazingly small. Why? Because
> Darwin's theories do not encompass any single discipline in the
> academy and because it would be ludicrous to equate 'Darwinism'
> with 'evolutionary biology;' just plain silly! Darwinian theory -
> fine. Darwin's contribution to science, no problem. But can a
> scientifically-minded Christian today really be an ideological
> Darwinist? Doubtful. Let the voices here please mount an objection
> if they exist.
>
> Distinguish the 'science' from the 'ideology' and we're getting
> somewhere: (neo)Darwinian vs. (neo)Darwinism.
>
> "Those like myself who are evolutionary creationists may have a harder
> time of it in the years ahead. I wonder about the future of science,
> certainly the politics of science, in the foreseeable future." - Bob
> There is no need for you to have a harder time of it in the years
> ahead. But what it will require is for you to be willing to embrace
> a paradigm that is not caught up in early-mid 20th century creation
> vs. evolution discourse, that acknowledges the legitimate 'science'
> in the 'modern post-Darwinian evolutionary natural science
> synthesis,' and that welcomes innovations to theory and method that
> eclipse the out-dated paradigm of 19th century evolution in non-
> natural science scholarship and academia. If you are stuck on the
> idea that 'evolution is only discussed in natural sciences - the
> only place it is really relevant,' then it seems you may indeed
> have a hard time of it. Since you acknowledge the 'politics of
> science' and thus perhaps the impact of the hermeneutic/cultural
> turn on 'science' this may help to situate the contribution of
> science to society in comparison to other values and meanings of
> human knowledge.
>
> Even the term 'evolutionary creationist' (though I sincerely
> appreciate the contribution of D. Lamoureux, the first Chair of a
> program in Religion and Science in Canada, who, it seems, coined
> the concept duo - 'evolutionary creationist,' please correct me if
> I'm wrong) is a vestige of yesteryear rather than a glimpse of the
> future. The same problem confronts those who live in a 'post-
> modern' reality, whereas they/we have not yet found/coined a
> positive replacement for that which is merely 'after,' i.e. 'post'
> something else. It is plain that being 'post-Darwinian' is not
> necessarily consistent with being anti-Darwin-ISM, as this thread
> indicates. Nevertheless, distinguishing the ideology from the
> 'science' seems much more difficult to do for natural scientists
> than for philosophers, social scientists or theologians.
>
> I submit that David O's suggestion of 'theistic evolution' or
> 'evolutionary creation' as a 'robust third way' is unlikely. A
> responsible Christian searching through the evidence (from their
> situated, partial academic background) is, however, to be
> acknowledged and applauded as suitable action during a time of
> transition. Nobody ever confuses P. Johnson with being a biologist
> or botanist! The fact that the awaiting non-evolutionary (though
> still likely 'process' relevant) paradigm has not yet arrived on
> scene does not negate the possibility that our science will
> inevitably move beyond evolutionary theory. To admit this
> possibility is to throw doubt on both TE and EC ideologies, which
> are quite obviously, given the marrying of their two concepts, not
> limited to either science or theology.
>
> Let me add that this past week I met, in a Department of
> Evolutionary Biology, with the organizer of the 'secular science'
> promotion in response to the trial in St. Petersburg,
> Russiamentioned by the Economist article. Our discussion was quite
> different, please be assured, than it would have been in America
> with America's peculiar/specific history of court cases and where
> 'creation vs. evolution' leftovers are still alive in people's
> vocabulary in a similar way to how 'cold war' attitudes remain on
> both sides among those who grew up and were educated/indoctrinated
> in that generation. A New Day Shall Come.
>
>
> G. Arago

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Sun Apr 22 13:27:23 2007