Re: [asa] Re: Dialogue and the bond in Christ

At 04:46 PM 4/1/2007, David Opderbeck wrote:
>Oh, COME ON, Pim. I've heard people defend Dawkins on his own
>merits, but I've never heard ANYONE claim Dawkins is primarily
>interested in debunking ID and is otherwise neutral towards religion
>in general. Everyone I've ever heard or read regarding Dawkins
>agrees that he hates religion qua religion -- he sees it as a sort
>of disease or defect that we should be rid of. Either agree with
>Dawkins or don't, but the idea that he's really a nice chap who just
>wants to protect the integrity of science against the ID folks is
>beyond incredible.

@ You will note that his apologetic for the atheist Sam Harris is
quite similar, to wit:

"...Sam Harris's book is a result of Christians 'responding' to
Harris's earlier work. [He] reminds us of the cost of our beliefs

<quote>Imagine the consequences if any significant component of the
U.S. government actually believed that the world was about to end and
that its ending would be glorious. The fact that nearly half of the
American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of
religious dogma, should be considered a moral and intellectual
emergency." (p. xii)</quote>

I do not necessarily agree with much of Sam Harris's position but
remember that his position is in response to what he perceives to be
Christianity and even if we may disagree that this is what we believe
Christianity is all about, the message we send to others through our
actions is how we shall be known and if the sales data on Amazon et
al are any hint, it seems that he has hit a nerve. .." ~ Pim van
Meurs - Sat Dec 02 2006 10:20 EST
http://www.calvin.edu/archive/asa/200612/0015.html

Of course we all know how Pim likes to quote St. Augustine ... but
not when he makes "offensive" statements referred to here:

4. "...Augustine, laboured to show, that we are not corrupted by
acquired wickedness, but bring an innate corruption from the very
womb. It was the greatest impudence to deny this. But no man will
wonder at the presumption of the Pelagians and Celestians, who has
learned from the writings of that holy man how extreme the effrontery
of these heretics was...."

10. "...Augustine justly derides some who arrogate to themselves a
certain power of willing, as well as censures others who imagine that
that which is a special evidence of gratuitous election is given to
all (August. de Verbis Apost. Serm. 21). He says, "Nature is common
to all, but not grace;" and he calls it a showy acuteness "which
shines by mere vanity, when that which God bestows, on whom he will
is attributed generally to all." Elsewhere he says, "How came you? By
believing. Fear, lest by arrogating to yourself the merit of finding
the right way, you perish from the right way. I came, you say, by
free choice, came by my own will. Why do you boast? Would you know
that even this was given you? Hear Christ exclaiming, 'No man comets
unto me, except the Father which has sent me draw him.' "

13. "..Augustine uses these words, "Every good work in us is
performed only by grace," (August. Ep. 105).

14. ".[Augustine] presses Pelagius to confess that gratuitous grace
is necessary to us for every action, and that merely from the fact of
its being truly grace, it cannot be the recompense of works. But the
matter cannot be more briefly summed up than in the eighth chapter of
his Treatise De Correptione et Gratia, where he shows, First, that
human will does not by liberty obtain grace, but by grace obtains
liberty. Secondly, that by means of the same grace, the heart being
impressed with a feeling of delight, is trained to persevere, and
strengthened with invincible fortitude. Thirdly, that while grace
governs the will, it never falls; but when grace abandons it, it
falls forthwith. Fourthly, that by the free mercy of God, the will is
turned to good, and when turned, perseveres. Fifthly, that the
direction of the will to good, and its constancy after being so
directed, depend entirely on the will of God, and not on any human
merit. Thus the will (free will, if you choose to call it so), which
is left to man, is, as he in another place (Ep. 46) describes it, a
will which can neither be turned to God, nor continue in God, unless
by grace; a will which, whatever its ability may be, derives all that
ability from grace. .."
<http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.iv.ii.iv.html>http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.iv.ii.iv.html

~ Janice :)

On Dec 1, 2006, at 8:42 AM, Janice Matchett wrote:
>
> Letters to a Maladjusted Misotheist
>
> Responding to Sam Harris and his book, Letter to a
Christian Nation.
<http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Christian-Nation-Sam-Harris/>http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Christian-Nation-Sam-Harris/dp/0307265773

> (Sam Harris is a graduate in philosophy from Stanford University
and has studied both Eastern and Western religious traditions, along
with a variety of >contemplative disciplines, for twenty
years. Mr. Harris is now completing a doctorate in neuroscience. )
>
> Nine different reply "letters" were done this month and there will
be a couple more at least this coming month. ~ J. P. Holding >
>
<http://www.tektonics.org/gk/harrisletter.html>http://www.tektonics.org/gk/harrisletter.html
[snip]

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Received on Sun Apr 1 17:54:53 2007