Re: [asa] Mark 10:6 -- "beginning of creation"

Gordon, thank you, the 2 Peter reference is very helpful here. So I've been
trying to learn Greek, and I'm an utter novice and would appreciate comment
from someone who actually knows what they're talking about, but here's an
observation: the Greek formulation is exactly the same in Mark 10 and 2
Peter -- arches kitseos -- kistseos and arches being in the genitive, and
both include the preposition apo ("from"). Interestingly, the NIV
translates the phrase in Mark 10 as "at the beginining of creation" and in 2
Peter as "since the beginning of creation." As far as I can tell, this
difference would be based on context, not on grammar. "At" sounds much more
specific than "since" or "from". "From the beginning" sounds more general
and idiomatic than "at the beginning," which sounds more precise. Given
that the speakers of this phrase in 2 Peter are the scoffers, this seems to
suggest that this "from / since the beginning" phrase is perhaps idiomatic
-- like we might say, "it's always been this way."

On 1/19/07, gordon brown <gbrown@colorado.edu> wrote:
>
> In Mark 10:6 and II Peter 3:4 the reference has to be to when the creation
> was complete, not to when it began.
>
> I wonder about the meaning of creation in these passages. The Greek word
> is ktisis, and it is commonly translated as creation or creature. In
> English we use the word creation to denote either (1) the physical world
> we see around us or (2) the process of creation. I don't know of any place
> in the NT where ktisis obviously means (2). Possibly it always means (1),
> i.e. the completed product. See Mark 13:19, where the same phrase
> "beginning of creation" occurs and the modifying phrase "which God
> created" obviously means that creation refers to the completed product.
>
> Gordon Brown
> Department of Mathematics
> University of Colorado
> Boulder, CO 80309-0395
>
>
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, David Opderbeck wrote:
>
> > Here is one interesting article I found in an RTB newsletter that talks
> > about the grammar and context (some of you will have to ignore the ID
> stuff
> > that's also in there :-) ):
> > http://www.reasons.org/chapters/seattle/newsletters/200406/200406.pdf
> >
> > George's response seems like the most devastating. If the "beginning of
> > creation" is what it simply and literally means in English, what's the
> > difference if Adam and Eve came on day 6 or on year 4 billion? Either
> way,
> > Jesus would be misrepresenting the facts.
> >
> >
> > On 1/19/07, Robert Schneider <rjschn39@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree with Michael. The common hermeneutic of YECs is eisegesis, not
> >> exegesis. They commonly read into a verse what they want to find there
> >> instead of reading out of a verse what is there.
> >>
> >> If you read the comment by Hugh Anderson in the New Century Bible
> >> Commentary on Mark 10:6-9 (p. 242-243), he makes it clear that this
> whole
> >> passage is about marriage and divorce. Jesus' "appeal is how things
> *may
> >> be* from the human point of view with respect to the Law [regarding
> >> divorce] to how things *are* in the order of God's creation." Anderson
> >> also refers to the *Damascus Document* of the Qumran community which
> uses
> >> Gen. 1:27 to argue for monogamy (over against polygamy).
> >>
> >> As Michael stated, Mark 10:6ff has absolutely nothing to say about the
> >> "creation week.". It is sad to see this kind of YEC interpretation that
> >> defies reason and logic, ignores context, and twists the meaning of the
> >> passage to serve an ideological end. This issue is on my mind right now
> >> because I am reading Henry Morris on Scripture; it's a real test of my
> >> equinimity.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* Michael Roberts <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>
> >> *To:* David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com> ; asa@calvin.edu
> >> *Sent:* Friday, January 19, 2007 2:33 AM
> >> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Mark 10:6 -- "beginning of creation"
> >>
> >>
> >> It is difficult to even write a good article on this exegesis of Mk
> 10.6as
> >> the verse says nothing about the creation week hence there is nothing
> to
> >> say!
> >>
> >> It is simply misuse of scripture .
> >>
> >> End of argument
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> >> *To:* asa@calvin.edu
> >> *Sent:* Friday, January 19, 2007 2:10 AM
> >> *Subject:* [asa] Mark 10:6 -- "beginning of creation"
> >>
> >>
> >> Does anyone know of a good article / source that discusses the exegesis
> of
> >> Mark 10:6, to reply to the YEC claim that Jesus must be affirming a
> >> one-week
> >> creation?
> >>
> >> --
> >> David W. Opderbeck
> >> Web: http://www.davidopderbeck.com
> >> Blog: http://www.davidopderbeck.com/throughaglass.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > David W. Opderbeck
> > Web: http://www.davidopderbeck.com
> > Blog: http://www.davidopderbeck.com/throughaglass.html
> > MySpace (Music): http://www.myspace.com/davidbecke
> >
>

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Web:  http://www.davidopderbeck.com
Blog:  http://www.davidopderbeck.com/throughaglass.html
MySpace (Music):  http://www.myspace.com/davidbecke
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