Re: [asa] Random and design

*Once
stripped from its religious baggage, it comes down to an 'inherent'
drive to please, now whether this inherent drive is called the 'Holy
Spirit' should not distract from the argument.*

The third person of the Trinity isn't "religious baggage," nor is He
"inherent" to us as human beings. This is a point, IMHO, at which social
evolution and the Christian story become conflicting narratives. The
Christian story is that we are redeemed and transformed by something wholly
external to ourselves. If the Holy Spirit is reduced to inherent human
nature, there's no Christianity left in that religion.

*Is the Church a necessity for a personal
relationship with God? I am not convinced. Are we saved by our
membership of a church? Do we need to be a member to be 'born again'?*

I am not a Catholic, though I respect Catholic ecclesiology -- for a billion
or so Christians around the world, the ultimate answer is yes, the Church
literally is necessary for salvation. Coming from more of a Reformed
perspective, at some point I have to respectfully disagree with my Catholic
brothers and sisters here. Yet, I don't think this should result in an
ecclesiology that guts the Church of any significance in the economy of
salvation. The lines evangelicals like to draw between salvation and
sanctification perhaps are too sharp sometimes. Membership in a local
church body does not save, but saving faith produces the desire and need to
fellowship in a local church body. The local church body absolutely is
essential to the ongoing progress of a believer's sanctification, and the
fellowship, maturity and service that happen in a local church body are part
of the ongoing process of an individual believer's salvation. Being "born
again" isn't merely a one-time transaction, it's an entry into lifelong
fellowship with Christ and into the community of the Church, over which
Christ is head.

*

*

On 11/28/06, Pim van Meurs <pimvanmeurs@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 28, 2006, at 11:36 AM, David Opderbeck wrote:
>
> > What is more Agape like? A Christian who is encouraged by the
> > Scriptures to follow the rules knowing the rewards at the end or
> > someone (Christian or non-Christian) who freely gives without no
> > expectations at all of any returns?
> >
> > This is an atheist's trope which reflects a very poor understanding
> > of the Christian's motivation. It is true that living faithful to
> > our calling as Christians is tied to blessing, particularly
> > eschatological blessing. But this should not be taken to mean that
> > the mature Christian's motivation for faithfulness is primarily
> > some kind of crude, selfish Pavlovian thing. Our motivation
> > ultimately is one of thanksgiving to God who redeemed us in Christ,
> > and our reward ultimately is a communal one of sharing together in
> > the blessings of the Kingdom of God. Further, our impetus isn't
> > really from our own inherent nature, but rather is from the Holy
> > Spirit who dwells within us and transforms us.
>
> I think that it is important to differentiate between the Christian's
> motivation and the theological 'explanation' for our behavior. Once
> stripped from its religious baggage, it comes down to an 'inherent'
> drive to please, now whether this inherent drive is called the 'Holy
> Spirit' should not distract from the argument. You are quick to
> reject that the 'mature Christian's motivation' is more than 'a crude
> selfish Pavlovian thing' but is it selfish when one acts motivated by
> a sense of an inner feeling, whether one calls it the Holy Spirit or
> something else?
> So let's look at this from a slightly different angle: In Romans we
> hear that the 'law' is known to all, Christian or non-Christian alike
>
> 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the
> things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law
> unto themselves:
> 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
> conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while
> accusing or else excusing one another;)
>
> So what is the difference may I ask between someone who acts in an
> Agape-like manner motivated by knowledge of these laws of nature and
> find reward in an internal form of reward or someone who acts in an
> Agape-like manner, similarly knowing the laws of nature, and who
> assigns the impetus to be from the Holy Spirit?
>
> But the question was more one of a Christian following the rules of
> Agape as outlined in the Bible versus a non-Christian who follows
> similar rules, encouraged by his knowledge of the laws of nature?
>
> >
> > Go back and read Romans 12-15 (particularly chapters 14-15 on
> > bearing the weak brother), the book of Galations, Ephesians 4-5,
> > etc. If you steep yourself in these texts, meditate and pray over
> > them, and the question you ask above will seem incoherent.
> >
> > Perhaps we have reached a stage where organized religion has served
> > its purpose and we are returning to a personal relationship with
> > God? Just a thought.
> >
> > A twisted thought. The Age of Aquarius through evolution? Sounds
> > fishy to me. The "organized religion" and "personal relationship"
> > lingo here I suppose is intended to appeal to fundamentalist
> > evangelical types. A thoroughgoing evangelicalism, however,
> > recognizes that no "personal realtionship" with God can flourish
> > outside the fellowship of the Church. Given that Christ is the
> > head of the Church (Eph. 5:23), I'd also suggest that this sounds
> > heretical and blasphemous.
> >
>
>
> Christ may be the head of the Church, but this does not make the
> Church a necessity. Is the Church a necessity for a personal
> relationship with God? I am not convinced. Are we saved by our
> membership of a church? Do we need to be a member to be 'born again'?
> We may consider things blasphemous because we not fully comprehend
> it. Is it heretical to argue that a personal relationship with God
> can exists outside the fellowship of the church?
>
>
>
>

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Web:  http://www.davidopderbeck.com
Blog:  http://www.davidopderbeck.com/throughaglass.html
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