Re: [asa] Random and design

On Nov 28, 2006, at 11:36 AM, David Opderbeck wrote:

> What is more Agape like? A Christian who is encouraged by the
> Scriptures to follow the rules knowing the rewards at the end or
> someone (Christian or non-Christian) who freely gives without no
> expectations at all of any returns?
>
> This is an atheist's trope which reflects a very poor understanding
> of the Christian's motivation. It is true that living faithful to
> our calling as Christians is tied to blessing, particularly
> eschatological blessing. But this should not be taken to mean that
> the mature Christian's motivation for faithfulness is primarily
> some kind of crude, selfish Pavlovian thing. Our motivation
> ultimately is one of thanksgiving to God who redeemed us in Christ,
> and our reward ultimately is a communal one of sharing together in
> the blessings of the Kingdom of God. Further, our impetus isn't
> really from our own inherent nature, but rather is from the Holy
> Spirit who dwells within us and transforms us.

I think that it is important to differentiate between the Christian's
motivation and the theological 'explanation' for our behavior. Once
stripped from its religious baggage, it comes down to an 'inherent'
drive to please, now whether this inherent drive is called the 'Holy
Spirit' should not distract from the argument. You are quick to
reject that the 'mature Christian's motivation' is more than 'a crude
selfish Pavlovian thing' but is it selfish when one acts motivated by
a sense of an inner feeling, whether one calls it the Holy Spirit or
something else?
So let's look at this from a slightly different angle: In Romans we
hear that the 'law' is known to all, Christian or non-Christian alike

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the
things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law
unto themselves:
  15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while
accusing or else excusing one another;)

So what is the difference may I ask between someone who acts in an
Agape-like manner motivated by knowledge of these laws of nature and
find reward in an internal form of reward or someone who acts in an
Agape-like manner, similarly knowing the laws of nature, and who
assigns the impetus to be from the Holy Spirit?

But the question was more one of a Christian following the rules of
Agape as outlined in the Bible versus a non-Christian who follows
similar rules, encouraged by his knowledge of the laws of nature?

>
> Go back and read Romans 12-15 (particularly chapters 14-15 on
> bearing the weak brother), the book of Galations, Ephesians 4-5,
> etc. If you steep yourself in these texts, meditate and pray over
> them, and the question you ask above will seem incoherent.
>
> Perhaps we have reached a stage where organized religion has served
> its purpose and we are returning to a personal relationship with
> God? Just a thought.
>
> A twisted thought. The Age of Aquarius through evolution? Sounds
> fishy to me. The "organized religion" and "personal relationship"
> lingo here I suppose is intended to appeal to fundamentalist
> evangelical types. A thoroughgoing evangelicalism, however,
> recognizes that no "personal realtionship" with God can flourish
> outside the fellowship of the Church. Given that Christ is the
> head of the Church (Eph. 5:23), I'd also suggest that this sounds
> heretical and blasphemous.
>

Christ may be the head of the Church, but this does not make the
Church a necessity. Is the Church a necessity for a personal
relationship with God? I am not convinced. Are we saved by our
membership of a church? Do we need to be a member to be 'born again'?
We may consider things blasphemous because we not fully comprehend
it. Is it heretical to argue that a personal relationship with God
can exists outside the fellowship of the church?

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Received on Tue Nov 28 22:44:11 2006