Re: [asa] Random and design

At 04:54 PM 11/24/2006, Pim van Meurs wrote:
>People can be good, people can be bad, people can be capable of
>doing good, people are capable of doing bad. Perhaps we should be
>weary of these calvinistic interpretations. I am certainly not
>impressed by Hamilton's claims especially since it is based on
>exactly the philosophical interpretation to which I object. ...

@ Sorry, but it's NOT a "philosophical" interpretation, it's a plain
Scriptural teaching. ~ Janice

Born Bad
http://www.tektonics.org/tulip/tulip.html
The Problem of Total Depravity
James Patrick Holding

Calvinism forms the underpinning of much Protestant thought today,
and a keystone for the rest of Calvinism's Five Points is the very
first, the T in TULIP: Total Depravity. What is the exact meaning of
this doctrine? Here are the points it generally offers, which one
will find repeated in various forms throughout works in favor of TULIP:
    * Sin corrupts the whole person -- emotions, will, and intellect.
    * Although this is so, we are not as bad as we could be; we could
be worse. We are, as Palmer puts it, not as intensively evil as
possible; but we are as extensively evil as possible. [Palm.5P, 9]
For example, while we as individuals may lie and cheat, this does not
mean that we will go as far as murder.
    * We are incapable of a truly good act of our own selves. Any
good deeds we do (outside of Christ) is merely a "relative" good
deed. A truly good deed is done for the glory of God; unbelievers are
incapable of this.
    * The supreme point following from these three: We are unable of
ourselves to turn to Christ to be saved.

Since I have began this study, I have now concluded (where previously
I was uncommitted) all 4 of these points are true according to
Scripture -- and therefore, I affirm that the T in TULIP is valid. ....

Born Bad: Cites Used to Support the Doctrine of Total Depravity

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I will begin, therefore, with the verse that clearly does teach total
depravity. Palmer [Palm.5P, 16] tells us, "Here is total depravity:
man cannot choose Jesus. He cannot even take the first step to go to
Jesus, unless the Father draws him." This is indeed total depravity,
but there is a factor involved that looks to shift the matter back to
individual choice. Jesus goes on to say in John 12:32, "And I, if I
be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." The Greek
word behind "draw" in the two verses is the same. Note the
connotation that this word can have:
Acts 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was
gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace
unto the rulers...

James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you,
and draw you before the judgment seats?

This word has the connotation of being brought somewhere by force if
needed, and against the wishes of the "draw-ee." This verse does
indeed teach the doctrine clearly. But once John 12:32 is thrown into
the mix, something is indicated which may throw the matter back into
human hands -- at God's sovereign directive and because of His
actions. How are men drawn onto Christ? We know and all agree that
the Holy Spirit is the "drawer" on men. But Jesus says that all men
will be drawn unto him. So what does this lead to? A logical
syllogism: All men are drawn to Christ. The Holy Spirit works this
function in all men. But clearly not all become Christians, and these
verses only say that one cannot make the choice without the drawing
first. (Even Yarborough, writing in favor of Calvinism in Still
Sovereign, admits that this can refer to a "more general attraction
that, say, renders persons accountable but not yet regenerate in
other" and tries to make "all men" mean "all elect men" [as below]
with no justification other than a pre-conceived application of
Calvinism.) Therefore, practically speaking, while we absolutely must
have God's prodding to come to Him, we are all getting that prodding
-- just like you can't decide on a path without information on the
path first. Geisler [Geis.CBF, 6], citing Sproul, observes that the
question now is whether God gives the ability to come to Him to all
men, and we discuss that more
<http://www.tektonics.org/tulip/ulip.html>here. In the meantime, here
are other passages often used to prop up the T petal. (I should note
one response to this verse, which says that "all men" means "men from
all nations" rather than literally "all men" -- this seems an all too
obvious "dodge" to save the doctrine of irresistible grace; in the
previous verse Jesus speaks of judgment of the kosmos and the prince
of the kosmos. It is the burden of the Calvinist to prove that "all
men" [in fact, only "all" is actually in the text; "men" is implied]
means "men from all nations" or "elect men".)

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can
come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I would also note as well that John 6:65, which I previously included
in the above, does not say that God enables people to believe -- I
think that that is a Calvinist reading of the verse. Indeed the
connection between belief and the Father's permission is not
specified -- it's just as well to say that the Father has to act as
an access-granter because people can and will join the movement under
false pretenses that no man can discern, which would make much better
sense under the client-patron relationship understanding. ...."

[]

Conclusion

After all of this criticism of those who favor the doctrine of total
depravity, I would remind the reader that I have indeed come to the
conclusion that it is Scriptural -- just not found clearly in a
majority of verses usually cited in favor of it. Those verses are
perhaps persuasion, but only the one in John 6 that we began with, of
those we have examined, is clear proof.
|
[]

Sources
    * Camm.SBG -- Cammenga, Ronald and Ronald Hanko. Saved by Grace.
Grand Rapids: Reformed Free Publishing, 1995.
    * Geis.CBF -- Geisler, Norman. Chosen But Free. Minneapolis:
Bethany House, 1999.
    * Palm.5P -- Palmer, Edwin H. The Five Points of Calvinism. Grand
Rapids: Baker, 1972.

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Received on Fri Nov 24 17:43:38 2006