Re: [asa] AIG -- Scientists! Give it up!

Hi Merv,

I've appended my comments in purple.

Vernon

Iain wrote:

There are plenty of "bad fruits" coming out of peoples abuses of Chistianity as well.

Iain, I have invited you to provide an example of evolution's "good fruits". Surely, you must agree that this doctrine is the very antithesis of the Lord's Gospel of Love. And that is why it has been so eagerly grasped by those who wish to destroy the Church - and all it stands for. [A little while ago, you objected to my quoting the name 'Hitler' in this context. For your information, Richard Weikart's "From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany", overwhelms your objection with hard facts.]

The Lord has laid down the guidelines for righteous living; it therefore follows that he cannot be held responsible for the behaviour of those 'tares' who, under the aegis 'Christian', perpetrate the foul deeds you speak of.

Are you really not able to see that, as a TE, you are attempting to serve two masters. The Lord himself reckons this to be impossible, predicting that "He will hold to the one (e.g. evolution), and despise the other (e.g. the Bible)".

This issue of fruits fascinates me. For one thing, Vernon, a good scientist would find the concept totally irrelevant in their quest for "factual" truth.

Except that we, as Christians, are here directly involved with matters _supernatural_. These, I suggest, might well have a bearing upon what we should accept as "factual" truth.

Evolutionary descriptions of how life's history plays out will either be accurate or not, quite independently of what anybody chooses to do with the information. Atomic theory is no less true just because we've now built nuclear weapons with it. And "guilt by association" has no scientific (or ethical?) bearing either. Hitler cleaned up Germany of pornography and opposed "big tobacco" (he gave us that phrase). Does that mean those causes are bereft of merit because of his association?

No, I grant you that these - though minor - are examples of good fruit. But consider the bigger picture: the well-known evolutionist, Sir Arthur Keith, explains how Hitler was only being consistent in what he did to the Jews - he was applying the principles of Darwinian evolution. He said, "We see Hitler devoutly convinced that evolution produces the only real basis for a national policy... The means he adopted to secure the destiny of his race and people were organised slaughter, which has drenched Europe in blood... Such conduct is highly immoral as measured by every scale of ethics, yet Germany justifies it; it is consonant with tribal or evolutionary morality. Germany has reverted to the tribal past, and is demonstrating to the world, in their naked ferocity, the methods of evolution."

But in the larger questions of life that go quite beyond science -- fruits do have significance. Our Lord states as much, in fact telling us that fruit is our best indicator of where another person stands (Matt. 7:16-20 & beyond). But as a "proof" of some tenet or doctrine or even as an apologetic tool for Christianity itself, things get trickier. One correspondent once referred to this as the "no-true-scottsman" fallacy. And I had to look that up to discover it is a reference to circular reasoning. (I.e. Christianity is the true religion because Christians have done good things. But wait! What about the Crusades? Ans: Well, they couldn't have been "truly" Christian because look what they did! ---and so history will of course show Christianity as the home of the saints) Well I acknowledge the fallacy well enough, I remain unconvinced that fruits then are "out of bounds" for evaluation. For one thing, the same hostile person actually insisted to me that Hitler was a Christian! His reasoning was that Hitler had declared himself to be so in his book Mein Kampf -- so that must make him one. According to that bizarre logic I could apparently make myself a Rhodes scholar simply by declaring that I am one, which of course, is nonsense. Anyone that can think of Hitler's life as Christian is pretty determined to view history through a narrow anti-Christian lens. ("Just the hard facts" he'd insist, which to me is a catch-phrase that usually means "WARNING -- I've got unacknowledged underlying ideologies)

Only by deliberately misconstruing the Lord's teaching does 'Christianity' produce evil fruit, whereas evolution - taken at face-value - _must_ (apart from possible minor exceptions such as you have indicated) generate evil fruit. The potential for this kind of thing is _inherent_ in evolution, but _completely absent_ from the Gospel of Love. The Inquisition and Crusades involved people who, misguidedly, supposed they were required to give God a helping hand.

So it seems to me that fruits are important -- but maybe more as an in-house indicator?

No, I believe there's far more to it than that, Merv. The following is what we might well refer to as

 "A Pilgrim's Paradox"

(1) Jesus, 2nd Person of the Trinity, is also Creator (Jn.1:3)

(2) The TE claim is that he performed (and continues to perform) his work of creation by a process of evolution over a great span of time

(3) Following the Incarnation, he warns his followers of potential risks when allowing themselves to get drawn into belief in another doctrine; to protect themselves from harm, he suggests two tests that they should apply: (a) examine the fruit of that doctrine and, (b) on no account allow it to become your master

(4) The essence of his teaching when on earth was, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind...and...Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Mt.22:36-40) Clearly, these statutes are completely at odds with evolution's guiding principle, 'survival of the fittest'

(5) It therefore appears that the TE claim requires us to conclude that we have a 'Jekyll and Hyde' Saviour! Clearly, a big problem! But, fortunately one that may be readily resolved by rejecting TE and accepting what the Lord tells us really happened - using the words 'good' and very good' to describe the pristine creation (Gn.1).

Vernon Jenkins

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Received on Sat Jul 29 17:34:55 2006