Re: [asa] AIG -- Scientists! Give it up!

Dear Vernon, you wrote:

>>Some days ago, thinking particularly of Mt.7:15-20, 6:24, I asked, Where do these significant matters fit into your scheme of things?<<

I think some of the YEC leaders would qualify as false prophets. Peter warns us about false prophets to come and says the "heavens are of old." So when someone comes along and says the heavens are young, the guy's flirting with getting a personalized millstone for an eternal companion.

>>But if we question His words, how are we to know what God intends to communicate to us<<

You don't question His words. You search for the appropriate meaning of anything you don't understand outright. Knowing biblical languages can help. Consulting commentaries can help. Talking with other knowledgable Christians can help. Reading up on science and history can help. Prayer and a humble attitude can help. Reading other parts of the Bible can help. When you don't understand a particular word or phrase, you may see the same word or phrase in another context where the meaning is clear and then apply that back to the pasage you initially didn't understand. There are a lot of things you can do when you have doubts about what you think God's words say.

>>However, my question was directed to you, Dick. How do you answer the Lord's command in respect of a doctrine that yields evil fruit and, further, competes with the Scriptures for man's allegiance?<<

Are you refering to evolution? Knowledge is neither good nor evil. It all depends on how you use it. All truth is God's truth. If we share common ancestors with creatures more hairy - praise the Lord. If we don't - still praise the Lord. The Bible doesn't prohibit evolution. Only people who don't read it all that well do.

Dick Fischer - Genesis Proclaimed Association
Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
www.genesisproclaimed.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Vernon Jenkins
To: Dick Fischer;ASA
Sent: 7/27/2006 5:55:28 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] AIG -- Scientists! Give it up!

Dick,
Some days ago, thinking particularly of Mt.7:15-20, 6:24, I asked, Where do these significant matters fit into your scheme of things? - for I'm sure you would agree with me that the words attributed to our Lord, Saviour and Creator must carry more weight than all others recorded in the J-C Scriptures. You replied, suggesting I read Keith Miller's paper, "Evolutionary Theory and Continuous Creation". Having done that, I have to report that a reasonable answer to my question is not to be found there.
Keith believes "there is no inherent conflict between evolutionary theory and a Christian faith with a high view of scripture." He accepts the Bible as "authoritative and true in what God intends it to communicate." He continues, "...simply accepting the truth of the biblical writings does not indicate the meaning of those writings...There is no such thing as an objective reading of scripture."
Dick, I take it that you subscribe to these statements. But if we question His words, how are we to know what God intends to communicate to us? It seems to me that he (Keith) advocates a 'free-for-all' - a 'build-your-own' gospel from the biblical fragments one is prepared to believe! Is there really no such thing as an objective reading of scripture? When the Lord speaks - as in his 'Sermon on the Mount' - have we the audacity to question what he says? - to translate it into words we would prefer to hear? What kind of Christianity is this?!
However, my question was directed to you, Dick. How do you answer the Lord's command in respect of a doctrine that yields evil fruit and, further, competes with the Scriptures for man's allegiance?
Vernon
[For Iain: since there exists no _objective proof_ of evolution, the term _doctrine_ is, I believe, apposite].

----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Fischer
To: ASA
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 4:05 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] AIG -- Scientists! Give it up!

Hi Vernon:

I have a web site for questions like these. But better you read Keith Miller’s

http://divinity-school.com/archives/article.html?articleid=48
.
Dick Fischer
Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association
Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
www.genesisproclaimed.org

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Vernon Jenkins
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 6:25 PM
To: Dick Fischer; ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] AIG -- Scientists! Give it up!

Dick,
I've just finished reading "Faith and the Human Genome", and it strikes me that what you and Francis Collins have in common is a complete disregard for words spoken by the Lord in his 'Sermon on the Mount'. There he warned his followers to carefully examine the teaching of any doctrine which threatened to _counter_ rather than _confirm_ his gospel message. "By their fruits ye shall know them." / "No man can serve two masters."
Writing to Iain just recently, I suggested that evolution fails these tests completely - backing up my claim with a selection of its anti-christian 'fruits'. You attest to be 'well-educated' and a man of 'relevant knowledge'. Let me therefore ask, Where do these significant matters fit into your scheme of things? - for I'm sure you would agree with me that the words attributed to our Lord, Saviour and Creator must carry more weight than all others recorded in the J-C Scriptures.
From what I gather, Jesus Christ was a _creationist_ - even a YEC!! (Lk.16:31).
Vernon
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Fischer
To: ASA
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] AIG -- Scientists! Give it up!

Hi Iain, you wrote:

>>I disagree totally with your position.<<

That’s what we do on this list.

>>Creationists as paid assassins??? What on earth are you talking about?<<

Jim Jones fed his congregation spiked Kool-Aid. They drank it and died. What kind words can we say about Jim Jones? We can have pity for the duped congregation, but Jones was culpable. My indignation is aimed at the ring leaders who I’ll leave unnamed, but one of them died recently.

>>Yes, they're deluded, I'll agree to that. So was I but I didn't allow myself to be for very long.<<

I have no quarrel with those who because of lack of relevant knowledge get caught up in YEC. When they get to heaven, who’ll care? It’s the untold millions who think the Bible is incredible because YECs have sold them the same bill of goods – that’s who I care for. I was lucky having been saved when I was in my forties, well-educated, and not so susceptible to YEC propaganda. But I could have lost my new-found faith had I not persevered and looked hard for better answers. Many others would have just bailed out all together, I almost did.

>> But I've known a close colleague who was a sincere creationist & there's no way I'd call him a charlatan, or a "paid up assassin".<<

Nor would I. There are probably less than a score of individuals who could qualify for a custom-made millstone for their scrawny necks. But God is the judge of that, not you or I.

Dick Fischer
Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association
Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
www.genesisproclaimed.org

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Received on Thu, 27 Jul 2006 22:25:09 -0400