Iain,
My responses are recorded below in blue.
Vernon
Did you actually try to evaluate the _scientific_ evidence that Collins presents? If so, on what basis do you reject it. If not, then you can hardly complain that so few people on this list have evaluated your numerical findings. If you'd for once desist from your continual behaviour of writing darkly worded posts about how evil is the heart of men that they can't see a miracle when it's in front of them, thereby antagonising people (just as Dick is antagonising me with his hate language), then people might be prepared to take some notice of you.
As you must know, the data that Collins presents - while undoubtedly interesting - is no _proof_ that humans and mice, for example, share a common ancestor; and no amount of evidence of this kind is able to overturn the simpler alternative that the special creation of different 'kinds' for life in a terrestial environment must, logically, require _similar_, but not _identical_, materials. Of course, in his (Collins) view the evidence in favour of evolution is overwhelming - but in making this judgment he has ignored those significant items of scriptural data which I have been bringing to the attention of the forum over past weeks.
I am sad to say that there is very little else I can offer you - you offer me a list of "bad fruits" of evolution. Well, human misconstrual of anything can give rise to bad fruits. What about apartheid (justified by citing Noah's curse on Ham), the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the hate rhetoric you'll find on the Wesboro Baptist Church in Kansas ( www.godhatesfags.com) (example given: "Thank God for AIDS")?
There are plenty of "bad fruits" coming out of peoples abuses of Chistianity as well.
Iain, I have invited you to provide an example of evolution's "good fruits". Surely, you must agree that this doctrine is the very antithesis of the Lord's Gospel of Love. And that is why it has been so eagerly grasped by those who wish to destroy the Church - and all it stands for. [A little while ago, you objected to my quoting the name 'Hitler' in this context. For your information, Richard Weikart's "From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany", overwhelms your objection with hard facts.]
The Lord has laid down the guidelines for righteous living; it therefore follows that he cannot be held responsible for the behaviour of those 'tares' who, under the aegis 'Christian', perpetrate the foul deeds you speak of.
Are you really not able to see that, as a TE, you are attempting to serve two masters. The Lord himself reckons this to be impossible, predicting that "He will hold to the one (e.g. evolution), and despise the other (e.g. the Bible)".
----- Original Message -----
From: Iain Strachan
To: Vernon Jenkins
Cc: Dick Fischer ; ASA
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 11:56 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [asa] AIG -- Scientists! Give it up!
Vernon,
Did you actually try to evaluate the _scientific_ evidence that Collins presents? If so, on what basis do you reject it. If not, then you can hardly complain that so few people on this list have evaluated your numerical findings. If you'd for once desist from your continual behaviour of writing darkly worded posts about how evil is the heart of men that they can't see a miracle when it's in front of them, thereby antagonising people (just as Dick is antagonising me with his hate language), then people might be prepared to take some notice of you.
I am sad to say that there is very little else I can offer you - you offer me a list of "bad fruits" of evolution. Well, human misconstrual of anything can give rise to bad fruits. What about apartheid (justified by citing Noah's curse on Ham), the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the hate rhetoric you'll find on the Wesboro Baptist Church in Kansas ( www.godhatesfags.com) (example given: "Thank God for AIDS")?
There are plenty of "bad fruits" coming out of peoples abuses of Chistianity as well.
You have said that evolution is a Satanic deception. I know you are sincere in that belief, but I think you are deluding yourself and not facing the evidence. It is therefore ironic that you complain that people won't face up to the numerical evidence you present.
Have you not considered the possibility that your narrow interpretation of the Bible might also be a Satanic deception? Even St. Augustine in the 4th century didn't accept the six days as literal 24 hour periods of time.
Iain
On 7/24/06, Vernon Jenkins <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net> wrote:
Dick,
I've just finished reading "Faith and the Human Genome", and it strikes me that what you and Francis Collins have in common is a complete disregard for words spoken by the Lord in his 'Sermon on the Mount'. There he warned his followers to carefully examine the teaching of any doctrine which threatened to _counter_ rather than _confirm_ his gospel message. "By their fruits ye shall know them." / "No man can serve two masters."
Writing to Iain just recently, I suggested that evolution fails these tests completely - backing up my claim with a selection of its anti-christian 'fruits'. You attest to be 'well-educated' and a man of 'relevant knowledge'. Let me therefore ask, Where do these significant matters fit into your scheme of things? - for I'm sure you would agree with me that the words attributed to our Lord, Saviour and Creator must carry more weight than all others recorded in the J-C Scriptures.
From what I gather, Jesus Christ was a _creationist_ - even a YEC!! (Lk.16:31).
Vernon
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Fischer
To: ASA
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] AIG -- Scientists! Give it up!
Hi Iain, you wrote:
>>I disagree totally with your position.<<
That's what we do on this list.
>>Creationists as paid assassins??? What on earth are you talking about?<<
Jim Jones fed his congregation spiked Kool-Aid. They drank it and died. What kind words can we say about Jim Jones? We can have pity for the duped congregation, but Jones was culpable. My indignation is aimed at the ring leaders who I'll leave unnamed, but one of them died recently.
>> Yes, they're deluded, I'll agree to that. So was I but I didn't allow myself to be for very long.<<
I have no quarrel with those who because of lack of relevant knowledge get caught up in YEC. When they get to heaven, who'll care? It's the untold millions who think the Bible is incredible because YECs have sold them the same bill of goods – that's who I care for. I was lucky having been saved when I was in my forties, well-educated, and not so susceptible to YEC propaganda. But I could have lost my new-found faith had I not persevered and looked hard for better answers. Many others would have just bailed out all together, I almost did.
>> But I've known a close colleague who was a sincere creationist & there's no way I'd call him a charlatan, or a "paid up assassin".<<
Nor would I. There are probably less than a score of individuals who could qualify for a custom-made millstone for their scrawny necks. But God is the judge of that, not you or I.
Dick Fischer
Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association
Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
www.genesisproclaimed.org
--
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Received on Wed Jul 26 17:24:36 2006
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