Re: eucharist, etc

Amen to that, Brother Michael! As my colleague Don Michael Hudson tells his OT students, speaking of YHWH, "This is a God you cannot wrap your mind around." Jesus said to "get beyond your minds" (Richard Rohr's translation of "metanoiete") if we are to enter into the mystery of the Reign of God.

Bob
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Michael Roberts
  To: cmekve@aol.com ; gmurphy@raex.com
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 5:57 PM
  Subject: Re: eucharist, etc

  A weakness of much modern evangelicalism including the British and Anglicans is their desire to have a complete explanation of the mystery of God and the inability to have anything which cannot be contained into inerrancy of a crude sort.
  God will always remain a mystery and thus the things of God as well be it the eucharist, baptism or even conversion.

  Further one may be able to explain the science of the Grand Canyon, or the theorubigen, theoflavin, and all the other theo- chemicals in tea but that does not explain why the GC is so beautiful or why tea (or coffee!) is such a satisfying drink.

  By trying to explain all we can lose the mystery of God and his creation.

  Michael

   ----- Original Message -----
    From: cmekve@aol.com
    To: gmurphy@raex.com
    Cc: asa@calvin.edu
    Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:16 PM
    Subject: Re: eucharist, etc

     I can't help quoting Flannery O'Connor on the Eucharist: "If it's [just] a symbol, to hell with it." :-)

    On the other sacrament, Augustine takes for granted the universality of infant baptism to make a point regarding other issues in his Literal Meaning of Genesis. [I realize that book is early 5th century, and not the very earliest church.] But as Ted points out with respect to the sacraments, much if not most of modern American evangelicalism is at odds with the historical church as well as much of present Christianity. This is at least partly responsible for some of the recent mass exoduses from evangelicalism to Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

    Karl
    ******************
    Karl V. Evans
    cmekve@aol.com

     
    -----Original Message-----
    From: George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com>
    To: Craig Rusbult <craig@chem.wisc.edu>; asa@calvin.edu
    Sent: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 09:15:01 -0500
    Subject: Re: eucharist, etc

    Baptism is indeed something "done to us" - by God. It is because of God's promise that it is effective. That's why both Aquinas & Luther say that God is the real minister of baptism. A good OT example is in Gen.15 where God makes a covenant with Abraham while Abraham is asleep.
     
    Infants are unable to have faith only if faith is limited to intellectual acceptance of doctrines. The fundamental element of faith is trust, & babies very quickly learn to trust their parents (assuming that they're halfway decent parents). Why is it then so strange to say that in baptism God can begin the process of bringing infants to trust him - a process that of course should include understanding in age appropriate ways as the child grows?
     
    Terry will probably, & perhaps rightly, note that this is somewhat distant from science-religion topics. I'll note again though, as I have in the past, that there is some inconsistency in many Christians (I don't mean Craig) who insist that texts like Genesis 1 must be taken literally but jump to figurative interpretations as soon as "by water and the Spirit" or "this is my body" come up. At the very least they ought to take a look at their interpretive principles.
     
    Shalom
    George
    http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
     
    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Rusbult" <craig@chem.wisc.edu>
    To: <asa@calvin.edu>
    Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:32 AM
    Subject: Re: eucharist, etc
     
> Debbie says,
>>A tape I'm listening to states that infant baptism was regarded by some as
>>... the initiation into the family of God. This is quite differe nt from
>>the alternate view...
>
> Most churches I've attended have done infant DEDICATIONS rather than
> infant BAPTISMS, symbolizing the parents' dedication to raising their > child
> in the church and in the ways of God. This accompanies their belief that
> authentic baptism (as in Romans 6 and elsewhere in the NT) requires belief
> by the person being baptized, not just by the parents.
> I was baptized as an infant, but this was something "done to me" by
> others, and was not my choice. Later, I chose (due to the leading of God,
> and allowed by the grace of God) to be baptized as an adult, and I > consider
> this to be my authentic baptism.
>
> Craig
>
>
Received on Wed Mar 8 21:36:26 2006