Re: petition to amend ASA Constitutional Objectives?

Y'know, I am a latecomer to ASA compared to many here, so I can't speak
to the historical aspects of ASA.
But I can say that I'm not afraid of to seek God's will. That is a very
serious proposition to me, and always has been.
But I'd have to say too that my own experience has never included crisp
more-or-less context independent marching orders a la Moses. And I am
pretty much a pragmatist by nature.

There's certainly no harm that I can see with what Joe proposes, but my
sense is that it is sort of waste motion, not because it would be waste
motion to seek God's will, but because people have already voted with
their feet through membership to the effect that it is already serving a
valued purpose. [If you're short of time, you can skip the rest!]

If the proposition reaches a ballot, it won't fly, mainly because folks
are basically satisfied with the way they are served by and through ASA,
short of ASA having enough funding to advance some of the education
resource (and perhaps other) projects. The objectives are what they are,
and the organization has been shaped and evolved to serve those aims,
and thrives in doing so.

Suppose though that such a ballot proposition were to pass. The
redirection offered by Joe has a very wide and indistinct field of view.
That means that there will predictably be, particularly from the
membership diversity that is part of the value of ASA, a diversity as
well as to what might constitute a valid redirection. In all
probability, the central consensus will remain the current ASA objectives.

But win or lose, a very real question to ask is whether the majority
perception of God's will for the organization can really be counted upon
to represent the divine will? Or, is it more likely that the divine will
would be better discerned by a more certain minority, ...or perhaps one?
Who can say? And who can say with certainty the ASA does or does not
presently comply with any specific divine intent? What we can say is
that the people here are serious about being informed and finding that
intent in their own lives and in their networking community. And ASA is
one resource they have elected to participate in toward those ends. In a
practical sense, I think the vote's already in, but that's just my opinion.

I'm not saying not to pose the question if you wish. I'm just suggesting
not to have high expectations that the organization as a whole wants or
needs to or should move off in a new directioin.

In a practical sense, it is usually easier to launch a new organization
to achieve new objectives than to redirect an existing one.

...or so it seemeth to me. JimA

Richard Fischer wrote:

> Certainly Moses knew God's will when he went to Egypt. It would have
> been hard to miss it. Anybody hear from God lately? Did He speak to
> any of you guys?
>
> Then Moses acted outside God's will and was denied the promised land.
> And any of us are free to do that, individually and corporately. As
> an organization, how can we be sure we are acting within God's will on
> every issue? Do we vote? Cast lots? Declare Randy a prophet, and
> let God speak to him?
>
> In short, it's the kind of presumptive, arrogant attitude I would
> expect from ICR, not from us. (The last time I saw Henry Morris he
> was autographing Bibles!) Let's be a little humble and seek God's
> will, reverently asking for guidance and making sure all we do fits
> within the confines of Scripture - not declare we know God's will and
> therefore act with infallibility.
>
> Dick Fischer - Genesis Proclaimed Association
> Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
> www.genesisproclaimed.org <http://www.genesisproclaimed.org>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> Joe, Dick, and all:
>
> I don't quite understand why we're all so afraid of "knowing God's
> will" language. Whenever we ask the question "What should I do?"
> or "What should we as an organization do?", we're asking that
> question in the form that I think Joe means. Nothing more nothing
> less. We use our knowledge of scripture, our circumstances, the
> need around us, our abilities, our desires, etc. to discern what
> we ought to be about. As we individually and corporately reflect
> on such things and do it prayerfully, seeking God's guidance, I
> believe that He guides us. That doesn't mean that we're infallibly
> perceiving His will or that we have some kind of indisputable
> Divine Mandate that blasts through all alternate opinion, but it
> does mean that we can have some humble confidence that we're doing
> what God wants us to do individually and corporately.
>
> I don't think it hurts to evaluate this from time to time. I'm
> actually confident that the Executive Council together with Randy,
> especially in the course of selecting a new Executive Director,
> went through this process to some degree. If the membership, at
> Joe's encouragement, pushes for a more radical re-evaluation, so
> be it.
>
> TG
>
> On Dec 2, 2005, at 9:22 AM, Dick Fischer wrote:
>
>> Hi Joe, you wrote:
>>
>> So it's futile for Christian engineers, scientists, theologians, and
>>
>> others to collectively and intentionally seek God's will for the
>>
>> engineering and science professions and their Christian
>>
>> members? It's established that God is too inscrutable for such an
>>
>> exercise to be anything but a presumptuous waste of time?
>>
>> There is certainly some question as to whether the will of God is
>> knowable or not. You could see that from the responses on this
>> list. Your suggested amendmen t seems to imply that we know it.
>> That's all.
>>
>> ~Dick Fischer~ Genesis Proclaimed Association
>>
>> Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
>>
>> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joe Carson [mailto:jpcarson@tds.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:43 PM
>> To: Dick Fischer
>> Subject: RE: petition to amend ASA Constitutional Objectives?
>>
>> So it's futile for Christian engineers, scientists, theologians, and
>>
>> others to collectively and intentionally seek God's will for the
>>
>> engineering and science professions and their Christian
>>
>> members? It's established that God is too inscrutable for such an
>>
>> exercise to be anything but a presumptuous waste of time?
>>
>> Please respond to the points I make, not your recasted ones.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> At 01:21 PM 12/1/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Joe, you wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>In other words, "ascertain God's will"?
>>
>>>
>>
>>>So Churches, Councils, etc are presumptuous? Is ASA presumptuous to
>>
>>>exist? If you wish to be irrelevant, that is a formula for being so,
>>
>>>that it would be presumptuous to be otherwise. Is God that
>>
>>>inscrutable, random, and capricious? Or is that just your
>> presumption?
>>
>>>
>>
>>>Testy. Joe, I wish I knew God's will for my life, and for the
>> ASA for
>>
>>>that matter. It would be real easy if the handwriting was written
>>
>>>neatly on the wall, in English. It isn't and won't be. But theology
>>
>>>isn't normally a strong suit for scientists and engineers, and
>> here is a
>>
>>>good opportunity to weigh input from someone a little theologically
>>
>>>grounded.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>~Dick Fischer~ Genesis Proclaimed Association
>>
>>>Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
>>
>>>www.genesisproclaimed.org <http://www.genesisproclaimed.org>
>>
>>
>
> ________________
> Terry M. Gray, Ph.D.
> Computer Support Scientist
> Chemistry Department
> Colorado State University
> Fort Collins, CO 80523
> (o) 970-491-7003 (f) 970-491-1801
>
>
Received on Fri Dec 2 18:47:52 2005