Re: More fusillades in the ID wars

From: Dick Fischer <dickfischer@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed Feb 02 2005 - 18:12:40 EST
Hi Terry, you wrote:

Dick,

As you must know, the "problem of evil" question is a broader question, and, indeed, a vexing question. It becomes personal for all of us in varying degrees as we experience "natural" or "moral" evil.

And there is a problem when we mix our metaphors and combine science and religion by linking up words from the realms of each.  I consider "evil" satanically inspired.  So "natural evil" is a contradiction in terms.  We have natural catastrophes such as the recent tsunami and moral evil such as the Nazi holocaust.  If we are talking about the progression of life, then we are in the natural realm.  If Satan is flipping the switches in our DNA then we really do have a "problem of evil."

You seem to choose, as many do on this list and elsewhere, to opt for a universe that operates autonomously of God's control as your explanation for such evil--God had more important things to do--and wasn't attending to the details that lead to bad things. (I really don't think that you can consistently argue that "God just screwed up".)

The implications of ID, which I don't subscribe to, are that if the Designer takes divine action to cause change in organisms when such changes are positive then either his oversights or his mistakes are manifested when changes are negative.  If evolution is impersonal, as I believe it to be, then changes occur due simply to natural causes and natural selection sorts it out.  God establishes the rules, nature obeys the rules, life progresses.

You claim that ID, YEC, PC all have this problem because they put God in the designer/creator seat. Well, as hard as it is to understand in light of the goodness of God, I really don't think that scripture is unclear on this--"Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" (Job 2:10) and many other similar passages.

The KJV says: "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

Good is received from God's hand, evil is not, according to Job.  However, we don't get our theology from a bewildered Job who is clearly wrestling with calamitous events, now do we?

 Whatever we think about Satan's activity or the wickedness of free agents, I don't think that scripture lets us think that these things operate outside of God's care and design.

Let's avoid the word "design" for a moment.  Nothing operates outside of God's knowledge or without His ultimate permission, and He created all things.  No argument from me.  But YEC, PC, and ID all require divine intervention in the progression of physical life not simply at the beginning of life.  All give God the credit when living organisms progress nicely and keep mum about the foul ups.  This is not reality, it is simply loyalty.

I prefer to give God the glory in all things and not worry about sorting out the good from the bad since even what may seem bad at the time can work for good.

In the progression of life just as in all physical processes such as when lightning strikes, or when the earth quakes, or stars explode, or what-have-you, natural explanations are preferable to supernatural ones.  When Christ was resurrected from the dead, I believe it happened through the personal action of God.  It was an unnatural, miraculous act.

What ID proponents seek to do is invoke divine intervention in the natural realm.  And then do it without owning up to the consequences when life's experiments fail, or when the deleterious effects of gene mutations are passed from generation to generation without divine impediment.

So you can add my version of TE/EC to those viewpoints for which you have a grievance. I think you speak quite prematurely to say that no one has thought about the dark implications of ID.

Who from the Christian community has been vocal about it?  And these reservations that I have raised, who else has raised them?  And be specific - who said what.

As I have stated many times here, the reason that evolution is compatible with my Christian faith (and others of Reformed persuasion--like those in Livingstone's *Darwin's Forgotten Defenders*) is that it is an expression of His creative and providential will--warts and all.

We don't disagree about that.

How can a good God allow or cause some of the things that seem to happen in the course of evolution?

"Allow" and "cause" are not interchangeable.  He allows evil.  He allows natural catastrophes.  And He allows evolution to progress with sometimes deleterious effects.  He doesn't cause evil.  He doesn't cause natural catastrophes.  And he doesn't cause evolution.

 Darwin asked these sorts of questions too and it led him (in dialogue and disagreement with Asa Gray) to question the orthodoxy of the day. Of course, I'm not sure I have a satisfactory answer other than trite-sounding phrases like "let God be God" or "the mysterious counsels of God". However, I do think that aspects of God's plans and purposes are beyond my comprehension--after all, He's God and I'm not. So I rest and trust, not necessarily with all my questions answered, but with the assurance that God is in control and is accomplishing His purposes in the world and in me--and He does this not only as the omnipotent, all-good, and all-wise Deity, but as my Heavenly Father. Central to those purposes and His care is Jesus Christ and His incarnation and suffering. All I can say is that God's marvelous grace and mercy are made known in His salvation. He has surely turned evil, that in me, in the world, and in those who wickedly crucified our Lord, to good.

Agreed.  Now why was it that I was supposed to add your version of TE/EC to the methods requiring sporadic, intermittent divine intervention in the progression of life forms to bring about adaptations?

Dick Fischer  - Genesis Proclaimed Association
Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
www.genesisproclaimed.org
Received on Wed Feb 2 18:12:52 2005

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