Re: Cobb County

George,

In my email of 21 Jan I requested clarification of your recent claim that my position is "practically equivalent to the Manichaean one" and thus "tantamount to heresy". You now respond with "...I indicated the Manichaean tendency of your thought adequately in a previous post." It is helpful, therefore, that I remind you of what you wrote then: "If Satan has such complete control over the world and human minds to make the great preponderance of evidence point toward a false picture of origins then Satan is, for all intents and purposes, the creator of the world we inhabit and of which we are part. This idea has always been recognized as a heresy - Manicheanism - by the Christian church." (19 Jan)

You have clearly misrepresented me, George, for nowhere have I claimed sovereignty for Satan. Rather, I have referred to that most instructive _case-study_, viz Job's life-shaking experience, where it is made clear that he (Satan) is neither a _free_ agent nor master of his own destiny. He is there portrayed as a _petitioner_ who, apparently, is constantly dreaming up schemes with which to afflict mankind - particularly those who have declared allegiance to the Lord. We are given to understand that God's response to each petition is perfectly in keeping with His ultimate, unsearchable and sovereign purposes; and we further observe that an assent may sometimes be conditional.

It follows that I am neither a Manichean nor a heretic (unless, of course, you had something else in mind). Accordingly, I believe it is reasonable that I ask you to publicly withdraw the charge.

I'm glad you are able to confirm that my reading of the biblical text is correct. The words appear to be unambiguous and clear enough. But where, then, does my train of logic fail?

Shalom
Vernon
www.otherbiblecode.com

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: George Murphy
  To: Vernon Jenkins ; D. F. Siemens, Jr.
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:15 AM
  Subject: Re: Cobb County

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Vernon Jenkins
    To: George Murphy ; D. F. Siemens, Jr.
    Cc: asa@calvin.edu
    Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 7:00 PM
    Subject: Re: Cobb County

    George,

    I find your response to my email of 20 Jan lacks the clarity one normally expects - even when 'ambiguously' is replaced with 'unambiguously'. Would you mind, therefore, rephrasing this first sentence? Again, I am unclear regarding the basis of your charge that my position is "practically equivalent to the Manichaean one" and thus "tantamount to heresy". Kindly explain.

    No, in this case I don't think I will. With the correction that Roger noted, my first sentence is quiter clear. Similarly, I think I indicated the Manichaean tendency of your thought adequately in a previous post. I would be more inclined to go the extra mile and try to explain more fully if your past performance gave the impression that you ever paid any attention to people who disagree with you.

     Finally, as a practising theologian, you might wish to confirm that my understanding of the biblical references quoted is correct - and that they have been correctly applied. In any event, I would find your observations useful.

    What you say about the passages you cite is OK. Your inference from them that your reading of scripture, & especially early Genesis, is the only possible one, isn't.

    Shalom
    George
    http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

    Shalom
    Vernon
    www.otherbiblecode.com

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: George Murphy
      To: Vernon Jenkins ; D. F. Siemens, Jr.
      Cc: asa@calvin.edu
      Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 1:20 AM
      Subject: Re: Cobb County

      Vernon -

      Thanks you for making clear, as I don't think you have in the past on this list, your acceptance of the fact that the kind of data you refer to points by itself ambiguously
      to an ancient earth and universe, as well as your acceptance of the most thorough apparent age argument. As long as you hold this position then everybody else will now realize that it is completely pointless to talk to you about any scientific evidence in this connection.

      Even though you speak of "refuting" my argument, you have done no such thing. Your position is, as I noted, practically equivalent to the Manichaean one. I don't like to throw the H word around casually but I think it would not be unfair to call your view, in one of those careful Roman phrases, "tantamount to heresy."

      Shalom
      George
      http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Vernon Jenkins
        To: George Murphy ; D. F. Siemens, Jr.
        Cc: asa@calvin.edu
        Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 6:51 PM
        Subject: Re: Cobb County

        George,

        In response to my email of 18 Jan you wrote:

        "If Satan has such complete control over the world and human minds to make the great preponderance of evidence point toward a false picture of origins then Satan is, for all intents and purposes, the creator of the world we inhabit and of which we are part. This idea has always been recognized as a heresy -Manicheanism - by the Christian church. And if you then argue that Satan is in fact subservient to God then you are right back to the problem that Dave points out - that God is (albeit through the agency of Satan) deceitful."

        Before moving on to refute these ideas, permit me to point to some further weapons in Satan's armoury: overseeing pyrotechnic displays in the heavens (e.g. SN 1987A); manipulating the speed of light and rates of decay of radioisotopes; laying false trails in the geologic column and ice-sheets; and so on. Such are well within his capabilities - and, with God's approval, must occur.

        Now, while at first sight your defence of the Establishment position appears invincible, it ignores the general context within which my claims are being made viz the acceptance of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as a body of divinely-revealed truth. In support of this understanding, let me quote the Apostle Paul: "All scripture (meaning the whole Bible) is given by inspiration of God..." (2Tm.3:16). He clearly regards it, in its entirety, as utterly true, for he continues, "...and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect...". We therefore infer that the Bible's express purpose is to provide our souls with fundamental and necessary information that, otherwise, would be eternally hidden from us; as, for example, man's true nature (Gen.8:21, Jer.17:9), his need of salvation, and the way of salvation. Observe that included with this information are a number of significant warnings; of particular relevance are those relating to people who reject God (Ro.1:20-25) and those who take issue with what He has written -seeking to bring it into line with their own preconceived notions (2Pet.3:16).

        God's response to those who attempt to supplant His account of creation by devising and promoting a philosophy (which, in fact, has the wider effect of challenging the whole of his revelation) must be _to give up on them_; they having become impossible to reason with. [I suggest that, as parents, we meet the same kind of problem when confronted with a child who obstinately refuses to accept the truth we tell him - and are likely to respond in the same way!]. But He might well go further when Satan comes along with his requests (as, for example, Job 1:6-12), by granting wide-ranging permission _to fulfil the expectations_ of those who have rejected God, His word, and its warnings.

        Is God, then, deceitful? No, for God has provided a true account of things as they really are; in particular, Satan's character and peculiar function have been revealed - complete with a working example (i.e. the matter of Job), as also have the appropriate warnings against unbelief. Surely, the responsibility for all that now occurs falls on the individual who has rendered himself wilfully ignorant of these matters and has thereby placed himself outside the grace of God.

        Shalom
        Vernon
        www.otherbiblecode.com
             
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: George Murphy
          To: Vernon Jenkins ; D. F. Siemens, Jr.
          Cc: asa@calvin.edu
          Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:26 PM
          Subject: Re: Cobb County

          Vernon -
              If Satan has such complete control over the world and human minds to make the great preponderance of evidence point toward a false picture of origins then Satan is, for all intents and purposes, the creator of the world we inhabit and of which we are part. This idea has always been recognized as a heresy - Manicheanism - by the Christian church. And if you then argue that Satan is in fact subservient to God then you are right back to the problem that Dave points out - that God is (albeit through the agency of Satan) deceitful.

          Shalom
          George
          http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Vernon Jenkins
            To: D. F. Siemens, Jr.
            Cc: asa@calvin.edu
            Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:29 PM
            Subject: Re: Cobb County

            Dave,

            Your email of 17 Jan included the following: "If the Creator produced this universe about 6000 years ago so that any rational observer thinks it is billions of years old, he is deliberately deceitful. Bluntly, your deity is a liar." A serious charge, indeed. You later go on to say, "I do vigorously oppose scientism, materialism, dogmatic naturalism, all positions which deny the God who is Truth.", and I am thus encouraged to offer a brief scriptural defence of my position.

             It seems to me that the one biblical character Christians find it hardest to talk about - or even acknowledge - is Satan. Yet our Lord describes him as "...the prince of this world..." (Jn.14:30) and "...a liar, and the father of it." (Jn.8:44). The apostles also warn us of him - notably in Eph.6:11 where Paul, speaking to believers, writes, "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." Yes, Satan - our adversary (1Pet.5:8) - is a real and powerful being; nevertheless, he is subservient to God (Job 1:6-12, 2:1-6) - and it appears that he is there, _unintentionally_ performing an important role in the unfathomable purposes of God.

            Now, on the basis of these revelations, one has to ask why many Christians appear to believe that a consideration of the _physical_ evidences alone is sufficient to sustain the confident claims made in respect of the age of the earth and God's method of creating. The answer is again to be found in the Scriptures where we read "...for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth..." (Gen.8:21)

            To summarise: my God is no liar; His word is true in its entirety. In believing differently, you have failed to heed its clear warnings and, in my view, have become embroiled in a gross deception. An eminent evangelical theologian here in the UK has described Darwin's, The Origin of Species as "more responsible for undermining people's faith and belief in the Scriptures, and in God's way of salvation, than any other single book." What a coup for Satan that was! - mass delusion on a world-wide scale - yet, in the wisdom of God, permitted, so that His sovereign purposes might be fulfilled.
Received on Sat Jan 22 17:05:27 2005