Re: Dick Fisher's "historical basis" remains no less doubtful

Another problem is the serpent.

I am sure there are fossils of serpents, i.e. crawling creatures with no legs, prior to 7000 BC or so.

I dont know how this would manifest itself in the fossil record but I imagine childbirth was painful before that time as well.

So, the account in Genesis, up through chapter 3 must be non-literal. At least the effects of the fall I think are not to be taken literally. I think that there needs to be a literal historic Adam. And I suppose he was singled out of the other humans that were around at the time, and placed in the garden. But there are too many parts of the story of the fall of man that must be mythological, the tree, the fruit, the serpent, the effects of original sin, etc. At this point, I think the literal historical narrative begins in chapter 4.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Charles Carrigan
  To: drsyme@cablespeed.com
  Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 12:15 PM
  Subject: Re: Dick Fisher's "historical basis" remains no less doubtful

  <><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><
  Charles W. Carrigan
  Olivet Nazarene University
  Dept. of Geology
  One University Ave.
  Bourbonnais, IL 60914
  PH: (815) 939-5346
  FX: (815) 939-5071>>> "jack syme" <drsyme@cablespeed.com> 10/19/2004 5:42:37 AM >>>

  I agree. Afterall one of the direct effects of the fall is to make the soil
  less productive so man has to do work to get it to produce:
>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>>

  The problem with this view is that there is no geological record of the fall. the fertility of soil is directly related to its chemical make-up, which is controlled by factors such as bedrock type, climate, weathering rates, biological activity, etc. etc. etc. And soils are preserved in the geologic record back to the Precambrian. And I've never heard anyone say that all those paleosols look like they would have been much more fertile than what we get nowadays.

  Best,
  Charles

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Don Perrett" <donperrett@genesisproclaimed.org>
  To: "jack syme" <drsyme@cablespeed.com>
  Cc: "ASA Discussions" <asa@calvin.edu>
  Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 12:49 AM
  Subject: RE: Dick Fisher's "historical basis" remains no less doubtful

>>>>>>Jack wrote:
> One thought I had about Genesis 2 is that it is just a description of the
> beginning of agricultural society.
>
> Look at all of the agricultural themes that run through Genesis 2:
> 2:5 no shrub of the field had yet appeard on the earth,...no plant of the
> field had yet sprung up; the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and
> there was no man to work the ground...
> 2:7 And the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground..
> 2:8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden...
> 2:9 And the Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground
> 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work
> it
> and take care of it.
> 2:20 So the man gave names to all the livestock,
>
> Is the sixth day of Genesis 1 the description of hominid evolution?
> Please
> see :
> http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1996/PSCF3-96Zimmer.html#Zimmer
>
> And is Genesis 2 the description of the neolithic revolution? Did God
> gift
> Adam, with agriculture? Is Adam in Genesis 2 historical or figurative?
> Is
> Adam in Genesis 3, historical or figurative?
>
> I think that it would be consistent, with the biblical description of
> Adam,
> to put a real historical Adam at the start of agricultural society, but
> there are clearly parts of Genesis 2 and 3 that have to be figurative.
>
> Perhaps the pure historical narrative begins with Genesis 4?
>>>>>>
>
> I agree with your interpretation of Gen2. I however would note that I
> believe that agriculture began not with Adam's creation but with the FALL
> itself. When Adam and Eve decided to take of the fruit and in so doing,
> try
> to become God's themselves, God sent us out to fend for ourselves going
> from
> a time of hunter gatherer with bountiful (wild) harvests to desolation and
> having to grow our own crops to survive. Even Christ said that the bird
> worries not but has all it needs. We are obscesed with creating a better
> life for ourselves yet one is available for the taking. We only need to
> stop the race into the future and allow God to provide for us, as was his
> intent.
>
>
> Don P
>
>
Received on Fri Nov 19 14:05:17 2004