From: Jay Willingham (jaywillingham@cfl.rr.com)
Date: Fri Jul 11 2003 - 12:59:52 EDT
Thanks.
Fascinating subject.
God saves those who acknowledge their sinful state, believe Jesus was exactly who he said he was, and accept his sacrifice as atonement for that past present and future sin.
How the Lord regard's the Abrahamic and Davidic promises to Israel in the Holy Land will be played out in Jerusalem at Mt. Zion.
There is also a plethora of disputes over the present state of the Qur'an and how it came into being. The existence of translations into Arabic of the Bible or Aramaic speaking scholars (like perhaps Muhammad) by 670 AD are problematic. Islam's hostility to other revelations could certainly explain the lack of survival such translations
Your point regarding the weak links between the Biblical text and the Qur'an militate against treating Islam as Christian heresy but rather points to it as independent claims of prophetic visions repudiating the entire cannon of Judeo-Christianity.
Also, those who deny the existence of Satan and his lieutenants such as the Prince of Persia would not believe that Mohammed's experiences could have been real and the product of an encounter with such entities. So, too, Joseph Smith's Moroni.
Jay
PS If the angel's name was Moroni, why are Smith's apostles not called Morons?
Sorry 'boot dat, couldn't resist. j
----- Original Message -----
From: Graham E. Morbey
To: Jay Willingham
Cc: Glenn Morton ; ASA
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Hell & MWH (Was Re: MWH experimental test)
Jay, may God save us all and bring peace to Jerusalem! I would like to issue a word of caution. Have you investigated the origin of the Koran, how Mohammad received his revelations over 22 years, the different datings and the lack of references in the Koran to basic elements of the Jewish/Christian story in both the Old and New Testaments? You will not get this from the Koran itself. Just think, in the 7th century the Bible had not been translated into Arabic! Mohammad only had oral traditions to go on. A thorough knowledge of the Bible appears to be lacking. There is more originality in the Koran than a hodge-podge of borrowed and altered stories of the Bible. In no way am I defending the religion of Islam but care must be taken in describing the views of others. A good new reference to dialoguing with Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam is found in Tennent's CHRISTIANITY AT THE RELIGIOUS ROUNDTABLE (Baker). There is merit in George's remark on treating Islam as a Christian heresy.
Graham
Jay Willingham wrote:
Some of these are quotes I used in my post, all of them I had read before
and they reveal the subtlety of deception.
They show Muhammad denied Christ was God and demoted the Jewish Messiah to a
mere "apostle of Allah", while giving offhanded lip service to both.
As God said, the descendants of Ishmael have become a mighty people at
enmity with all around them. Jesus said many false prophets would arise and
claim his place and that even the elect would be fooled if that were
possible.
Old Muhammad sure fits the bill of false prophet. Neat how the threshing
floor David bought on top of Mt. Zion in Jerusalem became Muhammad's
launching pad, the third most holy site in Islam and like the Ka'aba in
Mecca, another place to exclude the infidel from.
God save all the Muslims and bring peace to Jerusalem. Amen.
Jay Willingham
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Morton" <glennmorton@entouch.net>
To: "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>; "Jay Willingham"
<jaywillingham@cfl.rr.com>
Cc: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: Hell & MWH (Was Re: MWH experimental test)
-----Original Message-----
From: George Murphy [mailto:gmurphy@raex.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:36 AM
To: Jay Willingham
Cc: Glenn Morton; ASA
Subject: Re: Hell & MWH (Was Re: MWH experimental test)
Jay Willingham wrote:
Where in the Qur'an or Sh'aria did you find any reference to Jesus
being
accepted as the Messiah by Islam?
George obviously beat me to press here, but one can also see this in the
following passage which seems to indicate that they don't believe Jesus
was
actually killed. But the passage calls Jesus the Messiah:
"4.153": The followers of the Book ask you to bring down to them a book
from heaven; so indeed they demanded of Musa a greater thing than that,
for
they said: Show us Allah manifestly; so the lightning overtook them on
account of their injustice. Then they took the calf (for a god), after
clear
signs had come to them, but We pardoned this; and We gave to Musa clear
authority.
"4.154": And We lifted the mountain (Sainai) over them at (the taking
of
the covenant) and We said to them: Enter the door making obeisance; and We
said to them: Do not exceed the limits of the Sabbath, and We made with
them
a firm covenant.
"4.155": Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their
disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets
wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal
upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few.
"4.156": And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against
Marium a grievous calumny.
"4.157": And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son
of
Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they
crucify
him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who
differ
therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting
it,
but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
"4.158": Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
and:
"5.75": The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before
him
have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both
used
to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then
behold,
how they are turned away.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Fri Jul 11 2003 - 12:59:33 EDT