From: Debbie Mann (deborahjmann@insightbb.com)
Date: Tue Jul 08 2003 - 21:52:52 EDT
The same preachers that I have listened to who take the Bible literally have no problem in saying that it was the culture at the time which made people credit everything to God, when the Bible is quite clear that God is good, and light and in him is no darkness at all.
If you can say, as a group almost, that the description in Genesis is due to the 'science of the times' and not due to the way God created the world - then why is it so hard to accept that other cultural twangs got into the writing as well?
I've heard teachings on 'All things work together for good to them that love God' stating that God will bring good out of everything, but that doesn't mean that what happens when a young girl repents from getting pregnant out of wedlock was exactly what God had in mind for her. Yes, he'll bring good to her and the child - but it may not be the best that he would have preferred to give her.
Likewise, the evil that occurs is by God's permissive will - as has been stated, already, very eloquently. Satan, man, noone can do anything without God's permission. In Japan, if something goes wrong - the head honcho takes the blame. Their CEO may retire in shame due to something that was not directly his fault. Because it was his company - it was his fault.
I don't believe for a moment that God caused the car to wreck. He could have stopped it - he had the power. Chaos would ensue if God didn't let things take their natural course most of the time. Is it God's 'fault'? - depends on your definition.
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On Behalf Of Glenn Morton
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 7:17 PM
To: Howard J. Van Till; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: Predetermination: God's controlling will?
Interesting Howard. To what then do we look for information on God's nature? Do we look at what we like and don't like, and choose what we like? If God in fact is a bloody war-God, then it is best to know that. If God is not, it is best to know that as well. My problem with throwing things out independently if we don't like them is that it is such a messy affair to do it piece meal. If one decides that the Bible has little truth to say about God, why not throw it out wholesale and be done with it?
As many know on this list, I have struggles along those lines. I don't see the logic of picking through the maggots , admiring one or two of them throwing the others away, but in the end finding nothing underneath but a dead carcass.
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard J. Van Till [mailto:hvantill@chartermi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 2:11 PM
To: Glenn Morton; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: Predetermination: God's controlling will?
I had asked:
> Did the God who controls everything do this to Josh Speer and Holly Coupe?
> Is this commonly displayed portrait of God and of God's relationship to the
> world acceptable to the folk on this list?
Glenn replied:
> My reply might be summed up in Isaiah 45:7
>
> I form the light and create darkness,
> I bring prosperity and create disaster;
> I, the LORD , do all these things.
>
> Maybe it is the Lord's will. No one likes this verse and I never see it on
> the Bible verse calendar of the day.
Nor, in my judgment, should it. Just because these words appear in the Hebrew canon adopted as part of the Christian canon must we blindly take them to be an accurate or acceptable portrait of God? I do not.
Neither would I apply these words to the tragic death of Josh Speer and suggest that God chose to end Josh's life in what appears to have been a car accident, thereby causing profound grief in the lives of Holly Coupe and others who loved Josh. God gets remarkably bad press sometimes, even in the canon.
Howard Van Till
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