Dave,
I did mention that this topic has been discussed before and I quite agree
with your thoughts. I suppose, if you consider angels as ETL, there have
been many encounters recorded in the Scriptures and those encounters would
have been between fallen and non-fallen creatures. Yet, it is not clear to
me how "real" (in the sense of material) these angels are. At times they
are portrayed as having physical attributes but they seem to appear and
disappear in the strangest way, as if they didn't (always) have to obey our
physical laws. Note that I'm saying that angles are not real; all I'm
saying is that they don't appear to be made out of "stuff" like we are. I
suppose this could start a whole new discussion. ;-)
Like yours, my imagination is somewhat limited when it comes to this sort of
topic.
Chuck
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:56:31 -0500 "Vandergraaf, Chuck"
<vandergraaft@aecl.ca> writes:
in part> Jon,
>
> Maybe a bit of both;
>
> Theological:
> Not sure if I would know how to deal with ETL, for the reasons often
> cited:
> would these creatures be with or without sin? If intelligent, but
> without
> sin, how would we interact with them? If sinful, did Christ die for
> them
> and, if so, why did He pick this earth? If not, was His atonement
> not
> universal? How does one define "universal?"
>
The question of the atonement seems to keep coming up even though it has
been addressed earlier. While kosmos in John the Baptist's declaration may
apply to the universe, Paul connects Adam's death with Christ's life (I
Corinthians 15:22)--indicating that the redemption is for Adam's
descendants. I don't see how ETL can be Adam's progeny.
It is certainly possible that intelligent creatures may not have fallen and
so need no redemption. This is the case, apparently, with the angels who did
not fall. But the fallen angels have no redemption in Christ--unless we make
major revisions in the biblical revelation. But, if there were a corporate
fall, then it seems that one of their individuals would have to be their
redeemer, as a man had to be our redeemer. This would have to be a different
incarnation--or in-whatever-their-living-matter-may-be-tion--unless God
provides a system for salvation for them that is in no way like ours,
something other than a substitutionary atonement. The one way that I can
imagine this possibility is if the penalty for the ETL fall were something
other than death. But my imagination isn't good enough to figure out what
that might be.
Dave
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