Dear Glenn
Your posting of 29 Oct describes Penn who was active and inlfeuntial in the
1820s 30s and 40s, but does not mention the 1860s.
By then the Anti-geologists were on the wain if not vitually extinct and few
came out with YEC arguments.
Hugh Miller's wonderful chapter on Antigeologists was written in c1856
especiall y for the Testimony of the Rocks and not given as a lecture and
can be seen as the coup de grace on a silly chapter. when you look at the
dates of anti-geologists most were in the 20s and 30s and declined after
1845 with few in the 1850s. I have nt yet found one after 1850 hence my
comments about only 6 in 1860.
I have read dozens of attacks on Darwin and Essays and reviews and find that
every one is old earth - except BW Newton.
A universal Flood was held by many old earthers into the 1840s including
William Buckland. The issues of old earth and universal flood are not the
same.
I was not considering later writings, many of which are on my shelves.
Howorth 1887 was an old earther I believe
Mccready Price was turn of the century so too late for my 1860 YEC census.
Now as Glenn now lives the right side of the pond he will find that YECs are
rarer here than the USA from the late 19C
There is much work needed on this whole area.
Most impoortant is to see that YEC has always been a minority outlook within
the Christian churches, and that it is more signiificant now than it ever
was in the past.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Morton" <glenn.morton@btinternet.com>
To: "M.B.Roberts" <topper@robertschirk.u-net.com>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 12:07 PM
Subject: Like the poor, the YECS will be with you always
> 1/7/00
> Mark Roberts wrote:
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: M.B.Roberts [mailto:topper@robertschirk.u-net.com]
> >Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 10:09 PM
> >To: Glenn Morton; asa@calvin.edu
> >Subject: Re: Creation Ex Nihilio and other journals
>
> >> Michael Roberts wrote:
> >>
> >> >P.S. How many YECs can you name in 1860? Can you exceed my list of 6?
> >>
> >> Who is on your list?
> >
> >uk ; Phillip Gosse, B W Newton
> >
> >USA Moses Stuart, Dabney, Thornwell?, I have forgotten the other one Ted
> >Davies will know.
> >
> >If you want old earthers there are so many that I cant give them all
>
> Didn't ask for old earthers! But I will give you some more creationists of
> that era.
>
> In response to Allan and Roy, Mark Roberts wrote:
>
> >The question YECs need to ask themselves is why were Evangelicals so
rarely
> >YEC until the aftermath of the Genesis Flood in 1961?
>
> I strongly disagree with you that YECs were such an insignificant minority
> until ole Henry the Morris and John The Whitcomb published Genesis Flood.
I
> will point you to an earlier post of mine for information about a YEC from
> the early part of the 19th century, Granville Penn, who was still
> influential among many as late as 1860. See
> http://www.calvin.edu/archive/asa/200010/0284.html
>
> But in 1857, Hugh Miller in his book Testimony of the Rocks, felt the
need
> to spend three chapters, about 20% of the book arguing against the concept
> of a global flood and a young-earth. Surly you are not suggesting that
> Miller, a well-known writer of the 19th century spent that much time
aiming
> a book at those 6 fellows? Miller writes:
>
> "There are three different parties in the field, either directly opposed,
> or at least little friendly, to the men who honestly attempt reconciling
the
> Mosaic with the geologic record. First, there are the anti-geologists,--
men
> who hold that geological questions are to be settled now as the
Franciscans
> conteporary with Galileo held that astronomical questions were to be
settled
> in the seventeenth century, or as the doctors of Salmanca contemporary
with
> Columbus held that geographic questions were to be settled in the
fifteenth.
> And they beleive that geology, as interpreted by the geologists, is
entirely
> false, because, as they think irreconcileable with Scripture; further that
> our planet had no existence some seven or eight thousand years ago, --that
> the apparent antiquity of the various sedimentary systems and organic
> groupes of the earth's crust is wholly illusive,--and that the very oldest
> of them cannot be more than a few days older than the human period. IN
fine,
> just as it was held two centuries ago by Turrettine and the Franciscans,
> that the Bible as interpreted by them was the only legitimate authority in
> astronomic questions, so this class now hold that the Bible as interpreted
> by them is the only legitimate authority in geologic questions, and
further,
> that the Bible being, as they contend wholley opposed to the deductions of
> the geologist, these deductions must ov necessity be erroneous. Next there
> is a class, more largely represented in society than in literature, who,
> looking at the general bearings of the question, the character and
standing
> of the geologists, and the sublime nature of their discoveries, believe
that
> geology ranks as certainly amnt the sciences as astronomy itself; but who,
> little in earnest in their religion, are quite ready enough, when they
find
> theologians asserting the irreconcileability of the geologic doctrines
with
> those of Scripture, to believe them; nay, not only so, but to repeat the
> assertion." Hugh Miller, Testimony of the Rocks, (Edinburgh: Thomas
> Constable & Co 1857), p.379-380
>
> Here you have in 1857 a serious discussion of the leaders of YECs and the
> followers who go along unthinnkingly with the pronouncements of their
> clergy. Surely they all didn't change there minds during the 3 years
> between 1857 and 1860.
>
> Miller cites the Statesman and Record Oct. 6th 1846 where a writer, cited
an
> M. Gironde, who determined the average layer of sediment laid down each
year
> along the Nile and measured the thickness of the 'Nile' sediments and
> concluded that the inundations had 'commenced 5650 years before the year
> 1800, when the experiments were made,--a number which only differed 159
> years from the Mosaic date." ( Miller, p.410) [I might point out that
> already we have the pattern of the YEC citing half century old information
> in support of this theology--grm] The problem with this calculation was
that
> Gironde didn't measure the full thickness of Nile sedimentation which
> reaches 3.5 km under the delta.
>
> In that book, Miller mentions a guy named P. McFarlane who for the period
> 1843 to 1857 had produced a series of books on the infidel geologists and
> why they were wrong. (See Miller p. 398; I might mention if you have the
> american version of this bookthe page numbers are different.)
>
> There was an anonymous book published by a clergy of the Church of England
> entitled A brief and Complete Refutation of the Anti-Scriptural Theory of
> Geologists,(London: Wertheim & Macintosh, 1853)
>
> And don't forget this gem from 1853:
>
> "... or have asserted with a most Protestant lecturer who addressed an
> audience in Edinburgh little more than three years ago, that, though God
> created all the wild animals, it was the devil who made the flesh-eaters
> among them fierce and carnivorous; and, of course shortened their bowels,
> lengthened their teeth, and stuck formidable claws into the points of
their
> digits." Hugh Miller, Testimony of the Rocks, (Edinburgh: Thomas
Constable
> & Co 1857), p.386
>
> The note at the bottom of the page to this event says:
> "What he set himself specially to 'demonstrate' was, as he said, that the
> geologic 'theories as to antiquity of the earth, successive eras, &c. were
> not only fallacious and unphilosophical but rendered nugatory the
authority
> of the sacred Scriptures."
>
> In the post 1860 era, Ellen White has already been mentioned by Allan, but
> here is a quote from her from 1864, four years after Darwin.
>
> "[After the flood] The beautiful, regular shaped mountains had
disappeared.
> Stones, ledges, and ragged rocks appeared upon some parts of the earth
which
> were before out of sight. Where had been hills and mountains, no traces of
> them were visible...
> Before the flood there were immense forests. The trees were many times
> larger than any tress which we now see...At the time of the flood these
> forests were torn up or broken down and buried in the earth. In some
places
> large quantities of these immense trees were thrown together and covered
> with stones and earth by the commotions of the flood. They have since
> petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds which
are
> now found. This coal has produced oil..."
>
> "White claimed that Noah's flood had caused a great deal of geological
> commotion. Price reasoned that if all of the geological evidence for an
old
> earth could be explained by this commotion, then he did not need to
abandon
> White's 24-hour creation days. So Price took on the immense task of
> rewriting the entire science of geology to conform it to White's visions
of
> the creation and the flood." ~ Ellen White, Facts of Faith in connection
> with the History of Holy Men of Old, (Battle Creek, Mi: Steam Press,
1864),
> p. 78-79 cited by Don Stoner, A New Look at an Old Earth," (Eugene,
Oregon:
> Harvest House Publishers, 1997), p. 122-123
>
> Shortly after this, one can not forget the memorable Isaac Newton Vail
> (whose parents had high hopes for their youngster which obviously were
> disappointed). Vail was the fellow who in 1874 first proposed the canopy
> theory (resurrected and altered by Henry Morris). His book was quite
> successful, although forgotten today:
>
> "It was this independent research in a very wide field of
> thought that led me to enlarge the pamphlet of 1874 to a book
> of 400 pages in 1885; and again it was revised and enlarged in
> 1902; and I have been greatly encouraged by the fact that this
> last edition is now used in some of the colleges, and in at
> least two universities as an educator.
> "When the first volume was published in 1874 it was a rare
> thing to meet with a scientist who would admit that the earth
> had a ring system; to-day it is as rare to meet with one who
> does not concede the great fact, and the great problem is
> resolving itself into this form: How did the earth's rings fall
> back to the surface of the planet?" ~ Isaac Newton Vail, The
> Earth's Annular System, 4th ed. (Pasadena: The Annular World
> Co., 1912), p. v
>
> He claimed that this was the source of the global flood waters.
>
> I think you have forgotten Howorth's 'THE MAMMOTH AND THE FLOOD,'
published
> in 1887. This was a truly bizarre theory of the flood.
>
> Then of course, there was George McCready Price, already mentioned above
in
> the quotation about White. He published from around 1907 to the 1930s. His
> credits include:
>
> George McCready Price, The Fundamentals of Geology, (Kansas City: Pacific
> Press Publishing Assoc., 1913),
>
> George McCready Price, "Revelation and Evolution: Can they be Harmonized?"
> Journal, Transactions of the Victoria Institute 57:169 (1925),
>
> George McCready Price, Evolutionary Geology and the New Catastrophism,
> (Mountain View, California: Pacific Press Publishing Assoc., 1926),
>
> George McCready Price, The Geological Ages Hoax, (New York: Fleming H.
> Revell, 1931),
>
> And lets not forget the forgotten, William A. Williams, whose book went
> through over 50 printings from 1925 to 1953. He was the first person I
know
> of who used the population growth argument.
> "But let us generously suppose that these remote ancestors, beginning with
> one pair, doubled their numbers in 1612.51 years, one-tenth as rapidly as
> the Jews, or 1240 times in 2,000,000 years. If we raise 2 to the 1240th
> power, the result is 18,932,139,737,991 with 360 figures following." ~
> William A. Williams, Evolution Disproved, (privately published, 1925), p.
> 10.
>
> And of course, Harry Rimmer, that model of racial intolerance, was a
widely
> known and published creationist from the 1930s. He wrote many books and
> articles and lectured nearly everywhere. His credits include:
>
> THE HARMONY OF SCIENCE AND SCRIPTURE, by Harry Rimmer, written in 1936
>
> Of this, I might note that my copy of Rimmer's book was republished by
> Eerdmans in 1973 AMAZINGLY STILL CONTAINING THE RACIST LANGUAGE AT THAT
LATE
> DATE!
>
> "In the course of the evening's relaxation, a young medico who was one of
> the party introduced an ingenious game. He gave to each contestant a line
> from the famous, familiar old nursery song, 'There was an old nigger, and
> his name was Ned, and he died long, long ago.' The rule of the game
demanded
> that each man should reduce the line in his possession to the best
> scientific language at his command." ~ Harry Rimmer, The Harmony of
Science
> and Scripture, (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1936) 22nd printing 1973,
p.
> 61-62
> **
> "We had the audacity to maintain that the Hivites were the shrewdest
people
> that ever lived. This seems reasonable in the face of the fact that they
> were the only people in history who have ever beaten all the Jews in a
> bargain at the same time! If the reader doesn't think that that requires
> brains, try it on one child of Abraham, and see how far you get!" ~ Harry
> Rimmer, The Harmony of Science and Scripture, (Grand Rapids: Wm. B.
> Eerdmans, 1936) 22nd printing 1973, p. 259-260
>
> And he compared blacks with chimpanzees in an absolutely disgusting
passage:
>
> "If the quadrumanes would pick cotton they would displace the darkies of
the
> South in one year's time." ~ Harry Rimmer, Modern Science and the Genesis
> Record, (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1952), p. 257
>
> Don't forget the 1951 very popular book by Alfred M. Rehwinkel, The Flood.
> It was published by Concordia press arguing for a young-earth and a global
> flood. I think I recall this still being sold in the stores in the 60s.
>
> And one year before Morris's book, Mixter put out an anthrology of
> anti-evolutionary, anti-geological arguements. Evolution and Christian
> Thought Today, ed. R.L. Mixter (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1959)
>
> To claim as you have that YECs were not very numerous prior to Whitcomb
and
> Morris, is simply wrong. Morris simply provided a rallying point--nothing
> more. And YECs will be with us in significant numbers til the end of
time.
>
> glenn
>
> see http://www.flash.net/~mortongr/dmd.htm
> for lots of creation/evolution information
> anthropology/geology/paleontology/theology\
> personal stories of struggle
>
>
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sun Jan 07 2001 - 08:27:34 EST