At 01:31 PM 12/19/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Bertvam:
> >>I might define materialism as the belief that all the forces of nature are
> >>"empirically detectable and , to some degree, predictable". Conversely,
> >>anything that is not "empirically detectable, and to some degree,
> >>predictable" would not exist under a philosophy of materialism. The
> problem
> >>of free will is the first that comes to mind. By definition, free will can
> >>never be predictable (otherwise it wouldn't be free)
>
>Chris
> >This is false. Free will is simply acting according to, and on the basis
> >of, one's understanding of the "situation" one is in (including one's
> >understanding of contextual factors such as the Universe, one's future
> >prospects for various outcomes, and so on). There is nothing in any
> >rational concept of free will that requires that it be unpredictable.
>
>Bertvan:
>Hi Chris. There is exactly the same amount of evidence for the existence of
>free will as there is for it's non existence. If free will exists it is
>unpredictable until the moment a choice is exercised.
Chris
Why do you make such a claim? What is the evidence for this, other than
your arbitrary definition of free will as unpredictable? (Obviously, if you
*define* it as such, then, if it exists, it must be unpredictable, so
merely defining it that way does not prove anything about facts of reality).
Bertvan
>Recently you
>acknowledged that philosophy can never be proved and shouldn't be imposed
>upon anyone.
Chris
I acknowledged that it should never be imposed on anyone. I did not
acknowledge that it cannot be proved, because it can.
Bertvan
>I understand why a materialist would question the existence of
>free will, or anything else not scientifically predictable, but it seems
>presumptuous for you to state that any view except your own about the
>existence of free will "is false".
Chris
I didn't say that free will doesn't exist. I said there's no reason to
believe that it's indeterministic. I *do* wish you would quit grossly
misrepresenting my views.
I also claim that any view other than mine on the issue of whether 2+2=4 is
true is false. Why do you assume (without evidence, apparently) that this
issue is any different in fundamentals? Are you saying that reason applies
to mathematics but not to causation, not to the law of identity?
Bertvan
>I do not state that materialism "is
>false". I do not state that free will exists. I merely say that IF free
>will exists, it is unpredictable.
Chris
Again, *why* must it be unpredictable if it exists?
>What you describe as actions based upon
>contextual factors is not by any stretch of the imagination free will.
Chris
I assume you mean *your* imagination? Let us suppose you had some *other*
kind of free will. Suppose you are faced with choosing between A and not-A
as an action and some other action (or inaction). Suppose, in your
understanding, A is what you would rationally choose to do, because all the
not-A actions that you can think of mean the deaths of everyone you love.
Suppose, for reasons that are not significant here, you are faced with this
same kind of choice several times in succession. Mostly, you choose
correctly, and everything turns out alright. The lives of those you love
are saved.
But, because you have *indeterministic* free will, you are free to choose
some not-A course of action, and, one time, despite knowing how bad it is,
your free will leads you to choose a not-A action and all of your loved
ones are killed.
Now, of course, if you were able *consistently* to act rationally, you
would always choose the A course of action in each instance. But, the
problem is, *that* would be *predictable*. The only way for free will to be
unpredictable in an absolute sense is for you to sometimes choose the wrong
course of action, even though you know it's wrong, you are not emotionally
compelled to do it, you have no childhood trauma causing you to do it, or
*any* other such factors. You just freely choose wrongly, knowingly dooming
all your loved ones to death.
This is an *inevitable* consequential implication of the concept of free
will as acausal, indeterministic, absolutely unpredictable choosing.
More later. This is probably enough to think about for now.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Dec 19 2000 - 23:07:40 EST