Re: Religious Beliefs that *Require* the Falsehood of Scientific Theories (wa...

From: DNAunion@aol.com
Date: Sat Dec 09 2000 - 15:28:50 EST

  • Next message: Susan Brassfield Cogan: "Re: Religious Beliefs that *Require* the Falsehood of Scientific Theories"

    >>>>>
    Philosophical claims are of such fundamentality that they cannot come in
    conflict with genuine empirical fact and genuine scientific theory (this
    is one of the reasons why the indeterminism of the "Copenhagen
    Interpretation" of Quantum Mechanics is not scientific; it is *not*
    resolvable, even in principle, by empirical observation *except* by being
    empirically *falsified*).
    <<<<<

    DNAunion: The part about the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics
    seems wrong or incomplete to me.

    Einstein and 2 others devised a thought experiment aimed at showing the
    Copenhagen School's interpretation to be false/illogical (the experiment is
    known as ERP, for Einstein and the other 2, whose names I can't remember off
    the top of my head).

    In a pair creation event, spin is conserved. That is, if a pair of particles
    is created, with one of them having a "down spin", the other must have an "up
    spin" (think of it as conservation of electricl charge: if an electron is
    created, with a negative 1 charge, and positron is also created, with a
    positive charge, so both cancell each other out: that is, you can't create
    charge or spin). The determination of which particle would have which spin
    is not predictable - just the net result of the two, 0 spin, is.

    Einstein and the others said that the spins were determined AT THE TIME OF
    PARTICLE CREATION: one was CREATED with an up spin and one was CREATED with a
    down spin.

    The Copenhagen School held that the spins were in superposition: neither up
    nor down, and both up and down, UNTIL THE TIME OF DETECTION, at which point
    the wave function collapses and a definite value is actualized.

    The EPR thought experiment involved sending the two particles off in
    different directions immediately after the pair creation event, and passing
    one of them through a detector. At that instance, that particle's spin (up
    or down) would be known (determined/created, according to Copenhagen, but
    merely found out according to Einstein). To maintain conservation of spin,
    at the same, exact, instant the one detector found the spin of the one
    particle, the other particle's spin would have to be the opposite (either
    merely found to be the opposite, according to Einstein, or to actually be
    MADE to be the opposite, according to Copenhagen School).

    If the spin was created/determined only once the detection was made (i.e.,
    was in a superposition before that time), then the influence on the other
    particle's spin would be INSTANTANEOUS regardless of the separating distance
    - that is, faster than the speed of light. Einstein ridiculed such a notion
    as "spooky action at a distance", thus "disproving" the Copenhagen
    interpretation.

    However, experiments known as Bell experiments have since been devised that
    can settle the matter EMPIRICALLY. Mathematical proofs were generated
    showing that there is a measurable difference between the two possibilities
    (that the spin is determined at the time of pair creation, or only later at
    the time of first detection).

    Subsequent runnings of the experiments, including refinements, have shown
    that Einstein and his colleagues were wrong, AND THAT THE COPENHAGEN SCHOOL'S
    INTERPRETATION WAS CORRECT - the two particles' spins are actually
    indeterminate (in superpositions) until the first one is actually detected,
    and then, instantaneously, regardless of distance, the other particle's spin
    is determined/set (having to be the opposite spin of the first).



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