Chance and Selection

From: Bertvan@aol.com
Date: Sat Dec 02 2000 - 16:52:11 EST

  • Next message: Chris Cogan: "Re: Chance and Selection"

    Hi Chris,
    Descent with modification existed as a concept before Darwin. Darwin's only
    contribution was the mechanism - tiny random mutations, which natural
    selection created into complex biological systems by picking and choosing.
    Darwin himself stated that if any biological system proved to be too complex
    to be created in this way, his system would prove to be invalid. Some
    scientists, such as Behe, now claim that many, if not all, biological systems
    are too complex to have been "created" by natural selection. If, as you
    claim, "most scientists" no longer regard Darwin's theory the explanation of
    evolution, all they have to do is say so. Much of the controversy would
    disappear, for it is not "evolution" that most critics question, but
    specifically "the creation of complex biological systems by RM&NS". Some
    people use the term "imperfect copying" (of DNA I assume) instead of random
    mutation. This language certainly implies "accidental" and "lacking
    intelligence or purpose".

    In your analogy, the monkeys are only allowed to make certain changes. Who
    sets the rules for which changes are allowed? The machine itself you claim!!
     Any machine or entity that sets rules, or makes decisions sounds to me like
    it either includes intelligence, or it is itself the result of an intelligent
    design. I realize yours is only an analogy, but below is a quote.

    Chris:
    >So, we let the monkeys do their thing on a billion computers,
    >and a billion new computers are produced based on their
    >(mostly slight) changes. In some cases, the change might
    >only an increase in power supply wattage. In other cases,
    >it might be an increase in the amount of memory. In other
    >cases, it might be a difference in some software subroutine.

    Bertvan:
    We can guess the odds that an accidental modification made to billion
    computers by a billion monkeys would actually result in increased power
    supply wattage, or increased amount of memory, or change a software
    subroutine. I suggest that the odds are even less that an equivalent
    "improvement" would accidentally occur in a biological system, which is many
    times more complex. The most unlikely of all, IMHO, would be that all this
    random tinkering by monkeys would result in increased complexity, rather than
    deterioration. You say the system has the ability to repair itself. How
    would it to that without intelligence?

    I'm not sure if the "random mutations" you have in mind are point mutations
    in nucleotides. In which case, each new biological function would require
    thousands of mutations occurring in the proper order. Since I find it
    difficult to think that is what you mean, I assume that that you believe DNA
    itself has the ability to "organize" various point mutations into coherent
    information to specify a new protein. I've heard the suggestion that an
    existing gene might be used for a new function. Accidentally? Without
    intelligence? What would make the choice to use a gene for another function,
    if not some form of intelligence?

    Your view of life might not be too far from my version of intelligent design.
     I know it is important to you that no god play a roll in nature, and I
    wonder if that is the reason for your insistence upon "randomness".
    However, your view of life wouldn't have to be in conflict with Theism. I
    have no interest in a theory of evolution that would prove materialism wrong.
     I doubt either materialism or its opposites can ever be proved to the
    satisfaction of everyone. Materialists who are repelled by the concept of
    God could attribute nature's ability to organize itself into rational systems
    to an invisible force called "intelligence". Since a definition of
    "intelligence" is something that makes choices, it will always be
    unpredictable. Belief in whether or not God plays any roll in that
    intelligence could be optional.

    Bertvan
    http://members.aol.com/bertvan



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