At 07:57 PM 11/10/98 -0700, Kevin O'Brien wrote:
>Greetings Glenn:
>
>"I think that if the Fall is not historical, then H. G. Wells was correct.
>Christianity collapses like a house of cards."
>
>Not if the Fall isn't true. The Fall as we perceive it was largely invented
>by St. Augustine. As I explained in an earlier post, most of the other
>early church fathers believed something very different, but Augustine
>acquired the power to declare them heretics, so his verion won out.
Since Jesus is paying the penalty for our sin, and if the sin didn't come
about via a Fall, then that means that God created us sinful. I don't like
the implicaitons of that one.
If there was a Fall, but God inspired a different account of the Fall--then
God's inspiration, isn't worth much as a means of communication. To me this
leads to God being incapable of communion with us.
If the Fall and the rest of the creation account was made up by men, then
what do they know about creation? I wouldn't think that a man-made version
of creation is very useful.
>> And if my standard of
>>truth doesn't change, then I would be required to reject christianity in
>>order to maintain logical consistency."
>
>Then as a fellow Christian I have to ask two questions. First, what is more
>important to you, your "standard of epistemology and standard of truth" or
>Jesus Christ? Secondly, who is the God you worship, "logical consistency"
>or Jesus Christ. Please do not misunderstand, I am not criticizing your
>beliefs. As before that is between you and God. I am only trying to get
>you to think about what your beliefs are founded on. To paraphrase
>Scripture, how would it profit a man to be logically consistent but loose
>his soul?
I think your question is fair given my position and I don't mind even if
you were criticizing my beliefs. That is what a forum like this is all about.
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life." Truth cannot be
contradictory. Have you ever worked for a boss who always gave you
contradictory directions and then criticised you for doing what he said to
do last time you were in his office? I have. I will tell you that truth
cannot be contradictory. According to Parsiism, you must be born a Parsii
in order to be saved. This is certainly contradictory with Islam, Judaism,
and Christianity which allows proseletizing. Like that boss I worked for,
what does one do to obtain salvation if God is giving out logically
inconsistent results?
Do I worship logic? No, but without logic, one has no way to know WHAT GOD
REQUIRES of a supplicant.
>
>"Anyway, yes they believe Allah = Jehovah, but they deny the incarnation and
>the trinity etc. Someone is wrong."
>
>What they believe is that the god Jews call YHWY and Christians call Jehovah
>was really Allah revealing himself in different ways. As such, they believe
>that their god is the true God, whereas the Christian god is simply Allah in
>disguise. Christians, however, believe that Jehovah is the true God and
>that Allah is a figment of the Arab imagination. So they believe in two
>separate sources, two separate contexts, for their respective authorities.
>As such, it is understandable that Christians would believe God can become
>human, whereas Muslims would believe that to be blasphemy. Even the passage
>you quote from the Koran establishes that. So within their respective
>contexts, both religions are right.
No one denies the INTERNAL consistency of the Koran or other religions. It
is the external consistency that is a problem. Ptolemaic astronomy was
internally consistent, but wrong. Internal consistency is a poor judge of
truth. If so, then every single philosopher was correct because they are
internally self-consistent, but they contradict every other philosophical
system.
>
>"As I said in my other post, I need to get some writing done. If you want,
>you can have the last word. I am going to take a break from internet soon.
>And I have to get my house fixed up to sell."
Ah, I couldn't help myself earthy this morning. Your points were too good
not to get a response. Anyway, I will try to restrain myself this time.
glenn
Adam, Apes and Anthropology
Foundation, Fall and Flood
& lots of creation/evolution information
http://www.isource.net/~grmorton/dmd.htm