Stephen, as usual you completely miss the point. My data is not based
solely upon Biju-Duval's observations. Gibraltar is a new feature and the
Gibraltar strait was not in existence during the Miocene.Cores in the Betic
region of Spain show that there was a strait of water, which emptied during
the Miocene.
Betic Strait
"The dramatic benthic faunal changes at this location, between samples C9
and C13, have been interpreted to reflect a local sea-level fall of ~200 m
due to the combined influence of long term uplift in the Betic region and
more rapid global causes."~T. S. Loutit and L. D. Keigwin, Jr., "Stable
Isotopic Evidence for Latest Miocene Sea-level Fall in the Mediterranean
Region," Nature, Nov. 11, 1982, p. 164
There is also the Rif Mountains of Morocco which also may have provided a
water connection between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean prior to the
latest Miocene.
Cita et al think that the Rif basin was eroded through and was the area of
collapse which caused the infilling of the basin.
"It may be that at the time of the initial closing of the Atlantic portal,
groundwater aquifers did not exist and a large hydrostatic gradient was
required to get groundwater moving. One groundwater routes were
established, it is likely that they would have enlarged and become more
efficient through time. A profitable line of future research would be to
examine the timing and degree of karst formation of the Chaine Calcaire in
the Rif Mountains in Morocco, the significance of the Tetuan Gap, and the
collapse pattern of post-Tortonian blocks in the Straits of Sicily, with
regard to the distribution of the underlying Triassic soluble salts and
evaporites." ~ Maria Bianca Cita et al, "Messinaina Paleoenvironments" in
R. B. Kidd and Paula J. Worstell, editors, Initial Reports of the Deep Sea
Drilling Project, Vol. XLII, (Washington: U.S. Govt Printing Office 1978),
pp 1003-1035, p. 1031
The Rif mountains have been crushed by more than 20 km since the Miocene.
(see Cita et al (above) p. 1006)
So, Stephen, please try to at least get the local geology correct before
you complain.
>But Stanley's "20 million years ago" map on page 606 shows the gap *already
>closed*. And his maps of 6.0 mya and 5.5 mya show the gap *still closed*.
Stanley does not believe that the Gibraltar area was disconnected from the
Atlantic until the late Miocene. See Steven M. Stanley, Children of the
Ice Age, p. 54-55. He says, "Whether the northward lurch of the African
plate or from a slight drop in the level of the world's oceans, the Strait
of Gibraltar somehow narrowed abruptly, slightly before six million years
ago. This constriction prevented the flow of waters from the Atlantic from
keeping pace with evaporation, so that the Mediterranean shrank far below
its present level." P. 54
Now before you apply your usual literalism to this quote, Stanley would not
agree that it is the PRESENT location of the Strait of Gibraltar
>Second, "communication between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic in the
>Messinian." The authors identify the sites of this "communication" as either
>"farther north (Gudalquivir) or south (external Rif)." In fact on page 697
>of Biju-Duval et. al., there is a present-day geological map which shows
>these two straits were (or are) about 100 kms north and south of the Strait
>of Gibraltar, respectively. They are are also mentioned on page 717 as "a
>North Betic Strait and/or a South Rif Strait". In fact, my National
Geographic
>Atlas shows Gudalquivir as a river in southern Spain and the Er Rif mountains
>in northern Morocco.
So you finally agree with me. This is exactly what I have been trying to
get across to you.
>Calder speaks of "waterfalls ...at the western end when the Atlantic" which
>"spilled over the dam" ("consisting of the southernmost hills of Spain") and
>"replenishing the Mediterranean", which "happened not once but many
>times" about "every twenty thousand years or so":
>
>"By about 6.6 million years ago, glaciations spread to southern America,
>and a new ice sheet buried the islands of western Antarctica The amount of
>ice in the world was increasing rapidly, and the ocean surface dropped
>farther, by about forty meters. That fall contributed to unusual events in
the
>Mediterranean. A current flows continually from the Atlantic into the
>Mediterranean, to replace the water lost by evaporation from that warm,
>land-locked sea. The convergence of northern Africa and Spain threatened
>to choke the passage from the Atlantic, and 6.3 million years ago, aided by
>the falling sea level, a dam consisting of the southernmost hills of Spain
cut
>off the water supply. Within a thousand years the Mediterranean dried out,
>leaving deep holes in the Earth, spattered with salt lakes that occupied the
>abyssal plains and trenches of the ocean floor, two kilometers or more
>below sea level....As the sea evaporated, the French Rhone, the Egyptian
>Nile, and other rivers feeding the chasm became waterfalls that cut deep
>canyons. The greatest waterfalls were salty, and occurred at the western
>end when the Atlantic spilled over the dam, replenishing the Mediterranean
>That happened not once but many times. Every twenty thousand years or
>so the basin filled and dried again, until the deposits of salt became
>kilometers thick. Similar mishaps occurred in other episodes during the
>abolition or creation of oceans elsewhere, but this was unusually
repetitive,
>and the world's oceans were losing significant amounts of salt." (Calder N.,
>"Timescale An Atlas of the Fourth Dimension," Chatto & Windus: London,
>1984, pp135-136)
>
>Hsu confirms these cycles of multiple filling and drying out:
>
>"Clearly the basin was deep and submerged under marine waters when it
>was open to the Atlantic, but it turned into a deep hole when the floodgate
>was shut and the basin dried up. Because we discovered several oceanic
>sediments interbedded with the evaporites, we concluded that the floodgate
>swung open and shut repeatedly during an interval of about a million years.
>(Hsu K.J., "When the Mediterranean Dried Up," Scientific American, Vol.
>227, December 1972, p32)
>
>But eventually, about "5.3 million years ago" "The Atlantic waterfall at
>Gibraltar finally excavated a channel deep enough to refill the
>Mediterranean permanently":
>
>"The Atlantic waterfall at Gibraltar finally excavated a channel deep
>enough to refill the Mediterranean permanently 5.3 million years ago, and
>ring down the curtain on an oceanic scandal." (Calder N., 1984, p136)
>
>>From Calder's account it seems that the "Atlantic waterfall at Gibraltar"
>was filling the Mediterranean *as well as* other "waterfalls" including
>presumably those at the "North Betic Strait" and "South Rif Strait".
You are being entirely too literal here. In the context Calder is using
the term he means anywhere from the Betic region to the Rif.
>
>Biju-Duval et al, do not even mention the final filling of the
Mediterranean.
>But Hsu, Stanley and Calder all agree that it was a breach AT THE SITE
>OF THE PRESENT-DAY STRAIT OF GIBRALTAR that was the final,
>permanent filling of the Mediterranean:
>Glenn's claim that there was another "channel in the region" which was "1
>km deep x 25 km wide":
>is not supported by Biju-Duval et. al., and is contradicted by Hsu, Stanley
>and Calder.
Sigh, Stephen, hyperliteralism is not becoming. They use the term
Gibraltar for the entire Gibraltar region. I would point out that Hsu wrote:
"It seems logical to assume that movement along the Azoras-Gibraltar
fracture zone opened a deep gas between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean.
The 'dam' at Gibraltar was damaged and broken." Kenneth J. Hsu, et al,
"History of the Mediterranean Salinity Crisis," in R. B. Kidd and Paula J.
Worstell, editors, Initial Reports of the Deep Sea Drilling Project, Vol.
XLII, (Washington: U.S. Govt Printing Office 1978), pp 1053-1079, p 1075
Now, where is the Azoras-Gibraltar fracture zone? Not at the present
Gibraltar. It actually goes to the Betic region of Spain. It is a present
zone of seismicity and this seismicity can be seen to be aiming at Southern
Spain. (see jack Oliver, Bryan L. Isacks, and Muawia Barazangi, "Seismicity
at Continental Margins," in C. A. Burk and C. L. Drake The Geology of
Contiental Margins, New York, Springer Verlag 1982, p. 86)
So, please Stephen, cease the hyperliteralism that you engage in so often.
Geology is not mathematics.
>
>Indeed to meet Flood duration of 150 days in Genesis 7:24-8:3 there would
have
>to be an average flow of 24,672 cubic km/day, which equates to a channel 1
km
>deep x 41 km wide! Since today's Strait of Gibraltar is only "8 mi [12.8 km]
>wide" at its narrowest and averages "1,200 ft (366 m)" [0.37km] in depth
>(Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1984, iv:531), Glenn needs to find a "channel"
>existing 5.5 mya that is more than *three times* as wide and nearly *three
>times* as deep as the present Strait of Gibraltar.
>
>Also Glenn needs to explain how, why, and when this other "channel" closed up
>and the present Strait of Gibraltar opened up.
The Rif and Betic regions (which are show to be seaways in the Messinian
maps of Hsu, et al, Nature June 2, 1977, p. 401) were closed due to
continental motion of Africa toward Europe. At the approximate 2 cm/yr, in
5 million years, Africa is 100 kilometers further north than it was then.
As I noted above, 20 km of this compression is taken up by the Rif zone,
some would be taken up by the Betic zone and some by the Pyrennees.
>
>Unless Glenn can come up with some *hard geological evidence* that supports
>his claim that there was another "channel in the region of the break with the
>dimensions...1 km deep x 25 [indeed *41*] km wide", his 5.5 mya Mediterranean
>Flood hypothesis is falsified as a candidate for the Biblical Flood as
>described in Genesis 6-9.
Oh Stephen get real. I have provided that evidence over and over but you
ignore it over and over.
Take a look at Hsu et al, Nature June 2, 1977, p. 401
For some seismic data which shows the compression see
"Figure 1. Documentation of continued tectonic closure in northern Morocco.
Underthrusting of the Central Moroccan Meseta occurs beneath northern
offshore sedimentary nappes of the Rif zone where they extend westward into
the Atlantic. Note particularly on profile (3) a diachronicity of the
sedimentary fill in the subduction belt, expressed by a thinning of the
superficial acoustic transparent layer down the thrust plane. The strong
reflector just beneath the transparent layer is though to be upper Miocene,
as indicated by calibration by piston coring into this horizon south of
Casablanca. It can be inferred that up to 20 km of crustal shortening
(a-a') has taken place since deposition of the strong reflecting
interface." ~ Maria Bianca Cita et al, "Messinaina Paleoenvironments" in
R. B. Kidd and Paula J. Worstell, editors, Initial Reports of the Deep Sea
Drilling Project, Vol. XLII, (Washington: U.S. Govt Printing Office 1978),
pp 1003-1035, p. 1006
This is 20 km of collision between Europe and Africa over the past 6
million years.
Now go look at the seismic data. That is what I do for a living and I will
tell you Stephen what Cita et al say is correct.
>
>Steve
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Stephen E (Steve) Jones ,--_|\ sejones@ibm.net
>3 Hawker Avenue / Oz \ senojes@hotmail.com
>Warwick 6024 ->*_,--\_/ Phone +61 8 9448 7439
>Perth, West Australia v "Test everything." (1Thess 5:21)
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
glenn
Adam, Apes and Anthropology
Foundation, Fall and Flood
& lots of creation/evolution information
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