On 6 Jul 1996 09:51:38 EDT, pdd@gcc.cc.md.us wrote:
PD>For the most part, those of us who are Christian believers
>generally reference Genesis accounts of creation in developing our
>various arguments with regard to TE vs. special creation. Seldom
>do we look at the totality of scripture in defining our position.
Agreed. This is my basic position that "the totality of scripture"
reveals an interventionist God. As I have said in a porevious
message, it is *precisely* this intervention by God, which sets Him
uniquely apart from the "gods" of the heathen. In the account of
Elijah's challenge to the priests of Baal in 1Kings 18, it is
Yahweh's ability to intervene that is decisive:
First, Elijah proposes a test: "The god who answers by fire--he is
God" (1Ki 18:24) :
"Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver
between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is
God, follow him." But the people said nothing. Then Elijah said to
them, "I am the only one of the Lord's prophets left, but Baal has
four hundred and fifty prophets. Get two bulls for us. Let them
choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it
on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull
and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. Then you call on the
name of your god, and I will name of your god, and I will call on the
name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire--he is God." Then all
the people said, "What you say is good." (1Ki 18:21-24)
Second, the priests of Baal, vainly ask their god to answer, but he
doesn't:
"So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called
on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!"
they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they
danced around the altar they had made. At noon Elijah began to taunt
them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is
deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and
must be awakened." So they shouted louder and slashed themselves
with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood
flowed. Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying
until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response,
no one answered, no one paid attention." (1Ki 18:26-29)
Thirdlly, Yahweh answers Elijah's prayer by a supernatural
intervention:
"At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and
prayed: "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known
today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have
done all these things at your command. Answer me, O LORD, answer me,
so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you are
turning their hearts back again." Then the fire of the LORD fell and
burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also
licked up" (1Ki 18:36-38)
Finally, the Israelites judge that the true God is Yahweh because He
alone supernaturally intervened:
"When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The
LORD--he is God! The LORD--he is God!" (1Ki 18:39)
My argument is that if God has intervened supernaturally at strategic
points in human history (eg. Flood, Tower of Babel, call of Abraham,
Exodus, Exile & Restoration, Incarnation, Resurrection, Pentecost and
future Second Coming), then it is to be expected that He would
similarly intervene at strategic points in biological history.
PD>I have noted a number of scriptural references to Christ's role as
>Creator. For the most part these can be found in the New Testament. In
>addition, the narratives in the Gospels document Christ's references to
>Noah and creation. There are other New Testament references to creation
>as well.
Agreed. Jesus referred to events, people and places in Genesis 1-11
as though they were historical, eg.
1. CREATION (= GENESIS 1): "THE BEGINNING": "Haven't you read," he
replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and
female,' (Mt 19:4); THE BEGINNING OF CREATION "But at the beginning
of creation God..." (Mk 10:6); "THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD":
"...from the beginning of the world until now..." (Mt 24:21) "..the
beginning, when God created the world..." (Mk 13:19).
2. ADAM & EVE (=GENESIS 1-2) "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at
the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For
this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to
his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? So they are no longer
two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not
separate." (Mt 19:4-6; Mk 10:6-9. cf. Gn 1:26-27; 2:24)
3. THE FALL (=GENESIS 3) "You belong to your father, the devil, and
you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from
the beginning..." (Jn 8:44)
4. CAIN & ABEL (=GENESIS 4): "And so upon you will come all the
righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of
righteous Abel..." (Mt 23:35; Lk 11:50-51)
5. NOAH, ARK & FLOOD (=GENESIS 6-8)"As it was in the days of Noah, so
it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before
the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in
marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing
about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.
That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." (Mt
24:37-39; Lk 17:27)
PD>I was wondering if there was an interest in developing a
>discussion on these issues by the believers (TE's and creationists)
>on the list. While we are certainly not experts in theology, the
>effort would certainly prove fruitful to a broader understanding of
>our respective positions. I firmly believe that the defense of a
>theistic position regarding origins needs to include a fairly good
>understanding of its scriptural implications.
Agreed.
PD>I'm proposing the introduction of a scriptural reference with each
>of us posting their thoughts on how that scripture fits with our
>claims regarding origins. The discussion could be entitled "Christ
>and Creation".
OK. It is of course, important to also address issues of literary
genre and interpretation.
PD>Anyone interested?
Count me in. As you can see, I've already started! :-)
God bless.
Steve
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| Stephen E (Steve) Jones ,--_|\ sejones@ibm.net |
| 3 Hawker Avenue / Oz \ sjones@iinet.net.au |
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| Perth, West Australia v (My opinions, not my employer's) |
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