On Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:57:38 -0400 Glenn wrote:
SJ>Speaking of fossil man, Stephen Jones wrote:
>Did they use complex language? Write? Keep animals? Plant crops?
>Worship the one true God (as opposed to bear cults, etc)?
>IMHO the scientific evidence is a picture of an emerging humanity,
>not necessarily a full humanity (except that the Neanderthals may
>have been fully human).<<
GM>Since when has worshipping the one true God been the definition
>of fully human?
The "one true" was a "computer error"! :-) I meant "God as
opposed to bear cults, etc". Sorry.
GM>While on vacation, I found the reference to the Golan Venus I was
>looking for.To refresh memories, it is the oldest art object in the
>world and is housed in the Jerusalem museum. I found it in a
>bookstore on the California Coast.
Wow! Glenn will be a rich man! :-)
GM>...That
>object is 330,000 years old and is a venus figurine. It may or may not be
>the same object referred to by Stringer and Gamble _In Search of the
>Neanderthals_ (New York: Thames and Hudson, 1993), p. 161 which cites a
>possible figurine from > 230,000 years from Berekhat Ram.
>At 330,000 years, the figurine is older than the oldest Neanderthal and was
>probably produced by an archaic modern.
GM>Now, my question is if we are to exclude these early moderns from
>the human table, on what basis do you do this? Animals do not
>produce art in the form of sculpture. I would consider this figurine
>supportive of my views rather than any view which believes that
>humanity was created very recently.
It is also consistent with an emerging humanity and a two-Adam model
which believes that modern humanity emerged very recently.
>In another post Stephen asked:
SJ>I wonder if Glenn's pre-Adamite hominids had epiphanies? :-)
>I do not consider those PEOPLE pre-adamite. No human is.
Glenn missed the ":-)" :-)
>Stephen wrote:
SJ>Yes. Glenn completely ignores PC interpretations. For him the
>only alternative is YEC. This leaves his view the winner in what
>Macbeth calls the "best-in-field" fallacy:
GM>Stephen, do you believe that soul-less beings create art? I have
>not ignored PC views. Most PC views, like yours, Custance's, and
>Hugh Ross believe that man was a recent creation and thus can not
>explain why art was produced 330,000 years ago! I would suggest that
>you might be ignoring the scientific data, contrary to what you say.
No. I am not familiar with "Custance's" views and I have already
posted that I agree with "Hugh Ross" on this. I did not say that Gn 1
man was "soul-less". I specifically said under a "two-Adam model" Gn
1 man he could have been the genus Homo with an emerging image of God.
>Stephen wrote:
>>>The bottom line is this. Few if any students from Christian homes
>could accept an Adam and Noah who lived 5.5 million years ago. If
>forced to chose between Ussher and Glenn, most would chose Ussher!<<
GM>Then we would be rejecting every thing that can be observed. Light
>from distant stars and galaxies can not be that far, inspite of the
>fact that geometrical triangulation (surveying by the same geometry
>the Egyptians used) has been accomplished for objects at a distance
>of 13 million light years (SeeN. Bartel et al, "The Shape, Expansion
>Rate, and distance to Supernova, 1993J from VLBI Measurements,"
>Nature, April 14, 1994, p. 610. YEC literature will tell you that no
>star farther than 700 light years has been measured by direct
>geometrical triangulation.). Radioactive dates can not be that old.
>Footprints up and down the entire geologic column can must be
>produced at superfantastic speeds to deposit them in a year. Is this
>what the God of the Universe really wants? He wants us to reject
>everything we can observe and reason about? Does He want us to
>believe that He made a universe in which no observational data can be
>trusted?
I said if they were "forced to chose between Ussher and Glenn".
Fortunately they do not. A two-Adam model fits the facts nicely.
GM>If so, then, how can you trust the observational data which tells
>you what the Bible says when you read it?
I think Glenn is getting me mixed up with a YEC? :-) I do "trust the
observational data". I just don't agree with Glenn's interpretation.
>JIm Bell wrote:
>JB>It doesn't. Your personal belief system is one thing; your
>position re: the data is another. The latter is indistinguishable
>from atheistic Naturalism, and suffers from the same problems.
>Stephen Jones replied:
GM>For once I disagree with Jim here and side with Glenn. We must
>acknowledge that Glenn *does* believe in the Bible, in the
>supernatural creation of man, and in the Flood. His position is
>therefore not entirely "indistinguishable from atheistic
>Naturalism".
GM>Thank you, Stephen.
See. There is some good in me after all! :-)
>Stephen wrote:
>GM>However, his position is no threat to "atheistic Naturalism",
>either. At least the atheists sit up an take notice of YEC which
>they perceive as a genuine competitor. One suspects they would have
>a tolerant contempt for TE views?<<
GM>Atheists do not view YEC as a genuine competitor. They view it as
>an object of ridicule and a reason to reject Christianity. YEC does
>not even get the scientific data correct even in little things like
>the existence of the entire geologic column. YEC's say it doesn't
>exist. I have oil well logs from North Dakota which drill through
>the entire column.
The above does not prove that "Atheists do not view YEC as a genuine
competitor". Obviously they think its wrong. But the fact they spend
so much time and energy combating it shows they do. Otherwise they
would ignore it, like they ignore TE.
GM>My view might be more of a threat to the atheistic rational for
>rejecting Scripture than you can imagine.
I genuinely hope Glenn is right! (Philippians 1:15)
God bless.
Stephen
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