RE: Archaeological problems with the Origins Solution

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
> Behalf Of Dick Fischer
> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 10:33 AM

Dick Wrote:
> >> But biblical animal sacrifice has certain elements not proven or even
> >> suggested by your examples. First of all, domesticated
> animals were used
> >> for sacrifice.

I replied:
>
> >Isn't that a bit of stretch? What is the spiritual significance of
> >domesticated animals?
> >The Siberian bear cults raise a bear cub with them in their
> homes. Indeed,
> >when missionaries went to the Ainu, there are stories about the
> missionary
> >preaching to a room full of Ainu women who were passing the bear
> cub around
> >each nursing it in turn as they listened to the sermon. If that isn't
> >domesticated, I don't know what is. Or do you attach significance to the
> >willingness of the animal to stay in a fence?
>
Dick replied:

> Well, do they sacrifice unblemished bears on an alter to an unseen deity?
> Plus, Ainu still exist to this day. Who knows where they got
> their customs?
>
Their customs are with them as long ago as archaeology and history can
determine. They are just like the rituals of other bear cult peoples. The
bear is the bearer (no pun intended) of their sins and a communicator to God
of how good the people were to the bear. Yes, they do sacrifice the bear to
an unseen deity.

     "One is so easily tempted to dismiss any dying race as "primitive." On
the verge of extinction, at the end of a cultural evolution that lasted
thousands of years, little survives of the Ainu's world, yet it once had
great vitality. Their gods were as numerous as the phenomena of nature, for
the Ainu religion was a form of nature worship. Amorphous and invisible
beings dwelt everywhere. Rocks, fish, trees, the sun, and, in particular,
fire were all worshiped as sacred. Witchcraft and magic dominated the Ainu's
life, and the invisible link between man and superhuman powers was
maintained by their witch doctor, or shaman."
     "There is something of the Tungus in the Ainu, something of the
Siberian forest peoples, with their unshakable belief in the animation of
inanimate objects, or animism, something of the demonic spirits haunting the
forests, mountains and marshes of the taiga of northeast Asia."
     "All the Tungus tribes believed that the bear, the most similar to man
of all the creatures they knew, was the mediator between this world and the
next, and northeast Asia is full of strange fairy tales and legends about
the bear. The bear speaks, acts and intervenes in the destiny of man. He has
compassion with man and suffers like man. He is the "exalted being that
lives in the mountains." And this last is exactly what the Ainu call him:
kim-un-kamui. And the word kamui is probably the original form of the
Japanese word kami, meaning godhead."
     "All peoples on earth have pondered on man's communication with the
dead. We are born, we live, we toil, we laugh a little, we cry, we die. Each
generation contributes new experiences and yet would be so much wiser if
only the spirits of the departed could help out. A man's lifetime is so
short that he cannot achieve or learn very much. To the Ainu, if there were
no means of communicating with one's forefathers and the spiritual world of
the departed, life would be unbearable. But how is this liaison with the
spiritual realm, this freedom from all physical and carnal bonds, to be
effected?"
     "That is precisely what the bear is there for, the Ainu tell us. When a
bear is stripped of his hide he looks alarmingly like a man. Thus, to them,
he is a man disguised in fur and they see in the bear a mediator between
their own harsh world and the world of disembodied souls. Exactly when they
came to this conclusion, no amount of research will ever explain, but the
Ainu just know, and that is that. That is why their most important festival
is the iyomande, or home-coming of the soul. A bear is killed, but his still
living soul is sent forth to visit his bear ancestors. Someday the bear will
return, only to be sent forth once more. His flesh is eaten, his blood is
drunk, and his soul performs its mission. To the Ainu, this is the divine
order of things, the eternal cycle, the be-all and end-all, and thousands of
years of evolution have been unable to shake their belief."
     "A bear cub is carefully reared, fed and fondled. He has a nurse, an
Ainu woman who even suckles him at her breasts-until the young bear's claws
become too sharp and he is locked up in a cage."
"The villagers regularly visit the bear in his abode, greeting him in
friendly fashion. Master Bruin lives in this fashion for two years, and then
comes the big festival with its preparations and invitations. "I, so-
and-so, living at such-and-such a place, am going to send my dear little
bear cub back to his home in the mountains. Come, masters and friends, to
the feast. We wish to celebrate the joyful departure of the exalted one,
come!"
The guests arrive, a few of the women coming earlier to help with the
preparations. The bear is led around the huts for the last time to receive
the friendly salutations of all the villagers; then he is taken to the place
of "transformation," where he is addressed as follows: "We greet you. We
have nourished you with great care because we love you so much. Now that you
are fully grown, we are sending you off to your father and mother. When you
arrive, speak well of us, and tell them how good we have been to you. Come
back to us again, and we will hold a new festival and send you off once
more."
     "After that the bear is tied up, tormented by all the guests, shot full
of arrows that are not intended to kill him, and then beaten. As the
animal's frenzy grows, the pleasure of the guests increases. When he is
finally too weak to move, he is "dispatched homeward" by strangulation, or,
less commonly, by being tied to two stakes and killed by an arrow through
the heart. After part of the meat has been eaten raw and the blood drunk,
the remainder of the animal is boiled. The meal is enhanced by the invisible
presence of Fuji, the goddess of fire, and her daughter, "the maiden of the
cooking pot." The men anoint themselves with the bear's blood, an effective
means of insuring success in hunting, and the bear's skull is exhibited
outside the house, facing east, to be worshiped. Then, as the unfortunate
beast's soul leaves its body to rise to heaven, the men shoot off a few more
arrows to the northeast."
     "We now come to the most mysterious feature of the bear cult. After
his death, the bear is known as chinukara-gur, which means 'prophet' or
'guardian.' The Ainu use the same word to describe the North Star in the
constellation of the Little Bear. So it seems that from primeval times the
civilizations of both the Mediterranean and the Ainu have associated this
constellation with the bear. And up there the soul of the creature, which
the Ainu believe to be their redeemer and mediator, has its final
destination." ~ Ivar Lissner, The Living Past, translated by J. Maxwell
Brownjohn, (New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons, 1957), p. 205-207

I had written:

> >Dick, DICK!! LOOK AT BRUNIQUEL!!!! Not ony did they burn meat,
> the burned
> >the dead bear!!! The Neandertals got a bear to go underground (or killed
> >him at the surface and dragged him there). But they burned the meat and
> >all!
>
> And ate it.

And exactly what do you think the Jewish priests did with the bulls, bears,
turtledoves etc. That they sacrificed???? They ate it.

 I think you're grasping at straws here my friend. You have
> just enough data to speculate and not enough to prove your case. But even
> if you had Polaroid pictures of Neanderthals offering up bear
> sacrifices, it
> wouldn't change the time and place of Adam's appearance.

You entirely miss my point. It isn't about Adam's first appearance. It is
that animal sacrifice goes way back before the time you claim Adam appeared.
For once, think about the implications of data to your views, and not to
what I believe. Your theory has a major archaeological problem that you
have to squirm really hard to avoid.

>
> Between Adam and Noah we have cities, farming, livestock, stringed musical
> instruments, implements of bronze and iron. When did they build cities?
> When were crops raised? When were animals domesticated? When
> were stringed
> instruments invented? When was the Bronze Age? When was the Iron Age?

Irrelevant because animal sacrifice to unseen deities took place with
animals most assuredly raised in one's domestic home, long before 4500 BC

>

I had written:
> It still sets up two populations. BTW, my wife really does like
> the idea of
> being superior to me as she has suspected all these years.

Dick replied:
>
> Well, she probably listens :>).

Yes, she is much nicer than I and people actually like her. But she was
disappointed to hear that you don't think she had the image of God because
she is in the wrong side of the Semitic family.
>
>
> I noted in another note that you claimed Neanderthal ancestry. From one
> descendant to another, here is to animal sacrifice and its
> ancient origins!
>
> I do have that little telltale bump at the base of my scull. So, Cheers!

So you are one of those boat rowers?
Received on Mon Feb 16 21:02:01 2004