Re: Kirk Durston's response

From: NSS (kirk@newscholars.com)
Date: Tue Nov 11 2003 - 10:13:38 EST

  • Next message: NSS: "Re: Kirk Durston's response"

    As before, Denyse, please have this posted on the ASA discussion list.

    On 11/10/03 5:49 PM, "Michael Roberts" <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>
    wrote:

    >
    > Having decided that 70 is the magic number (perhaps numerologists may note
    > the 7 - divine number) then proteins with 300 bits cant be natural and
    > therefore divine by interruption.

    Two points to make here. First, 70 bits is not simply picked out of the
    blue. If one plots 'information gain' vs. 'time', one will notice that the
    curve approaches a horizontal asymptote somewhere in the region of 70 bits.
    I say 'somewhere in the region' because the amount of information carried
    per site in any sequence will affect how soon the curve goes asymptotic.

    Second, Michael's objection misrepresents my hypothesis. He implies that my
    argument goes something like, "wow, I can't see how nature can do this,
    therefore, God must've done it!" This is neither the argument, nor the
    hypothesis. My hypothesis is based upon two empirical observations:

    1) In our observations of the day-to-day processes of nature, we notice that
    natural processes cannot seem to produce more than a few dozen bits of
    functional information. They do not even seem to have the capability.

    2) In our observations of this world, we notice that intelligent agents,
    such as humans, can produce vast amounts of functional information.

    >From the above two empirical observations, we can put together an
    hypothesis:

    Hypothesis: Any structure, configuration, or sequence that requires more
    than 70 bits of functional information, requires intelligent design.

    Michael has not considered the role of empirical observation (2). Without
    (2), then the argument would, indeed, collapse into a God-of-the-gaps
    argument. With (2), however, the argument stands on solid, empirical ground,
    and gives us a real, live, empirically verifiable option.

    There are good reasons for all this, that center around the fact that
    configurations that contain a large amount of information, represent a very
    large entropic anomaly in the physical system, under Shannon information.
    Nature is not in the business of producing huge anomalies on a regular
    basis. For a minimal genome, we would need roughly 250 anomalies so large,
    that even just one of them is not likely to occur in the history of the
    universe. When we see something like that, we need to face reality, rather
    than concoct yet another ad hoc story with an ever increasing number of
    epicyclic embellishments, as the ardent Darwinist such as Dawkins is so wont
    to do. Dawkins, and others like him, have confused the art of story-telling
    with doing hard science. They are guilty of the 'evolution-of-the-gaps'
    argument.

    As for Michael's contention that the hypothesis is not falsifiable, I must
    ask him to carefully go over the two experiments I proposed. Either
    experiment is capable of falsifying the hypothesis if the hypothesis is
    wrong. The fact that, thus far, experiments have failed to falsify the
    hypothesis should not be taken as grounds for saying that the hypothesis is
    not falsifiable, otherwise, every true hypothesis in science would fall into
    the same category. Some hypotheses, although falsifiable, may not be able to
    be falsified simply because they are a true description of the way the world
    is.

    I repeat my challenge; do the science proposed in my two suggested
    experiments and see if my hypothesis, which is falsifiable, is actually
    falsified or not.
    >
    > Simply God retreats as a gap is filled.
    > It is a sophisticated version of God of the Gaps - which is of course the
    > staple of IDers however cleverly they express it.

    I cannot speak for all ID theorists; I am sure that some may actually use
    various forms of a God-of-the-gaps argument. I do know, however, that the
    general assertion that Michael makes misrepresents some ID theorists,
    including myself. One should not be so convinced that all ID theorists use
    such-and-such argument that when a valid ID argument comes along which the
    skeptic cannot refute, the skeptic assumes it is merely a highly
    sophisticated form of the standard argument, so sophisticated, mind you,
    that the skeptic cannot actually cannot show the link. When that occurs,
    then it becomes the skeptic's own beliefs that leave the realm of
    falsification.
    >
    > Biochemistry is too young a science to make predictions or
    > assertions like this. If we do in a few years someone may/will find an
    > explanation and God is squeezed out of another gap.

    There is a lot more than mere biochemistry involved in my hypothesis. There
    is a steadily growing body of evidence from physics, information theory, and
    mathematics, all of it consistent with the hypothesis I present.
    Furthermore, the gap, when it comes to natural processes that can produce
    novel 3-D structures in proteins, and encode functional information into
    regulatory sequences, is not by any stretch of the imagination becoming
    smaller.

    One more point. Until a person has a scientific method to detect ID, one
    cannot, on scientific grounds, say that ID was or was not involved. I see a
    large number of scientists insisting that ID was not involved in the origin
    and diversification of organic life, yet they do not have a scientific
    method to test such statements. That is bad science. In a personal email
    conversation I had with Richard Dawkins a couple years ago, it became quite
    clear that Dawkins not only does not have a scientific method to test for
    ID, he is actually opposed to science developing one!

    Furthermore, I see far too many scientists who foresee the philosophical
    implications of ID and who therefore refuse to do the science. The job of
    science is to develop a generally accepted method to detect ID and then let
    the philosophers and theologians wrestle with the implications. But
    scientists should not let the philosophical implications hinder scientific
    inquiry. That is bad science. So the real people who are smuggling
    philosophy and religion into their science are those who oppose ID without
    any scientific method to test for ID. The hypothesis I present offers such a
    scientific method. It makes predictions that are falsifiable. It can be
    applied to the real world, and comes up with results that are repeatable and
    entirely consistent with the general body of empirical science.

    Cheers,

    Kirk



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