Re: Evolutionary Theory: It doesn't work yet!

From: Dawsonzhu@aol.com
Date: Sat Nov 01 2003 - 00:14:50 EST

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    Walter Hicks wrote:

    > I can say as others have said to me: If you want to understand GA, you need
    > to get a book and read it.
    >
    >

    Fair enough, so why not suggest a leading book on the subject so
    we can all decide for ourselves if there is something significant in
    this or not.

    Working from a different angle of computer programming, I notice
    that a common approach I use is to start with a working program and
    modify it to make it to work for another project. I will also combine
    different programs together to build a new one. As I build more related
    programs, I have more tools to exchange between them, and a kind of
    natural evolution of the program occurs. I also sometimes have
    subprograms I leave decommissioned, only to discover that it can be
    re-invoke with minor modification at some point. I also might switch
    between decommissioned subprograms, and the newer one for various
    reasons. Within all of this, there are fundamental parts of the program
    that simply do not change or change only in the most superficial ways.

    So these have remote analogies with simple mutations, horizontal
    transfer, neutral mutations, and pseudogenes.

    As long as the modifications are reasonably small, that strategy works,
    so given one has the machinery one needs, it's not hard to work toward
    a goal. But there are times when I find I really have to rethink the
    approach
    because the old way just cannot meet the requirements. It is not the
    efficiency issues in my case (which is a whole different matter from just
    doing a job), it is a matter of the fundamental needs of the task. In such
    cases, I may have to do a major rewrite and the result is something that
    has little resemblance to the original, except for possibly some retained
    variables. When it can be modified step by step toward that ultimate goal,
    it is again a clear cases of a selection process, but sometimes I must make
    the whole modification before I even have the chance to test it. It is not
    just an "enough time" issue, it is really building a whole module from
    scratch.
    It is also not a mere issue that I have built extra stuff that could have
    found
    an easier way to the goal, there is no way to the goal except by building
    that
    new module from scratch. I do not like to waste time writing major code from
    scratch unless I have to.

    If we introduce efficiency issues, that would make the matter worse because
    special algorithms designed for speed are less amenable to major
    modification.

    So in short, I can grant you some room there.

    What I can realize from this comparison is

    (1) Extinction is most likely to occur when the rate of adaptation required
    is faster than the intrinsic capacity of an organism to make that adaptation.

    (2) It leaves me with some unresolved questions about where new functional
    genes come from.

    (3) In connection to (2), I must ask what level of complexity is required for
    any given adaptation in the history of the earth.

    (4) I think introducing RNA/DNA is of minor significance, it helps preserve
    neutral mutations in functional genes, but aside from physical issues of
    biopolymers typically possessing a persistence length of the order of 3
    nucleotides (persistence is a measure of the bendability of the polymer), it
    would be just as efficient if there was one single index. So aside from
    ribosomal RNA being a living fossil, I would dismiss that as a relevant
    argument.

    Point (3) is what requires some unpacking. What I am asking is

    (a) Could we start with some core fundamental machinery
    (both RNA/DNA and protein components) and build all of life with it?
    This is my opinion, but I don't really think a _pure_ RNA world is feasible.
    There must have been some mutual co-development of these two
    systems.

    (b) Can we trace our way back to these core pieces of machinery?

    (c) Are these core pieces of machinery sufficiently simple that such
    units could occur in a hydrothermal vent or some other proposed location
    of natural development? And, are they enough that all other functional
    proteins could (in principle) develop? I think we should not ignore the
    challenge of _how_ to get a piece of ribosomal RNA and gene replication
    machinery started in the first place and this is something that molecular
    evolution often seems to ignores taking it as "given". We have the low
    end in the pea soup of life, and _given_ rRNA etc, we _may_ have the high
    end, but it is hard to see a lot of simple steps in-between.

    This is not a defense intelligent design or irreducible complexity,
    I think these are largely unanswered questions. We may find
    answers to them, but most of them are only currently partially
    resolved.

    At any rate, a genetic algorithm (GA) can only help if the components put
    into the pool are sufficient for the job. If the programmer didn't give
    the GA enough to do the job in the first place, the programmer cannot
    expect a stupid GA to help him/her do the work that he/she was supposed
    to do himself/herself. It would be nice to have a computer like on Star Trek
    where I just order the computer to do some arbitrary job and it simply does
    following my _intended_ request and not what I asked it to do. Wow, what
    a remarkable machine that is!

    It does put some onus on people who simply take as given that some very-
    very-very powerful machines are just simply there (dropped down from the
    sky I suppose). But, at the same time, where we draw the line on what is
    feasible remains unanswered also. I addition, even when given, what is
    sufficient is yet an unanswered question.

    by Grace alone we proceed.
    Wayne



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