Stuart Kirkley responds:
Well, sir, I could just as forcefully argue that the 'wiles' of the
devil are actually to try and get us to believe in personified evil,
and to regard Satan as an entity, and to also regard God as a person,
and to further believe that these are two opposing powers which are
eternally at war with each other. How can that be if God is
omnipotent? If you allow that God is omnipotent, then how can an
opposing power ever exist. If you truly understand what omnipotence
is then how can you allow that there can be an opposing power to God
ever. It is only temptation which holds up the illusion of an
opposing power to our minds. This temptation is the carnal mind
beckoning to us to believe in personified evil and in mortality with
all it's attendant pleasures and pains, sin, disease and death. This
is nothing more than an erroneous mental suggestion which can be
rendered null and void by upholding the first commandment and
declaring the truth: that God is indeed omnipotent, and t!
hat
His kingdom is the (only) power, and the (only) glory, forever, and
to know that God does not lead us into temptation, but delivers us
from evil. (Yes, that is part of the Lord's prayer).
To think that there is personified evil and an actual entity called
Satan is theological superstition which stems from a misinterpretaion
of the scriptures. Jesus proved Satan to be powerless, he opposed
evil and defeated it in all it's guises of sin, disease and death.
The BIble declares that the last enemy to be defeated will be death.
Did not Jesus triumphantly demonstrate his dominion over this 'last
enemy'. Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth, and the life' He proved
that this way, or Christ, is the truth, which, when faithfully
declared, rebukes the temptation of the devil, or appearance of evil,
in all it's myriad guises. The BIble further clarifies this erroneous
suggestion to be the carnal mind, or carnal mindedness. This carnal
mind is a bald imposition on our God given dominion over all the
earth, and everything of it. All we need to do to defeat this
supposed 'carnal mind' is to faithfully declare the truth ourselves,
the truth of our own God given dominion,!
an
d rebuke the offensive lie of mortality, and claim our God given
heritage as the sons and daughters of God, as Jesus did, as joint
heirs with CHrist.
Again, to ascribe reality to evil in any form, is exactly what evil
wants us to do, to make a reality of it, and especially to personify
it. IF you believe that Osama bin Laden is truly an evil man, then
aren't you breaking the very commandments which Christianity is based
on, to love our enemies, and to learn how to forgive. As soon as you
personify evil, it is very difficult to forgive. But if you
de-personify evil, this better allows us to achieve forgiveness. IF
we know that the misdeed, no matter how abhorrent, stems from the
mesmerism of the carnal mind, which is not person, but merely
erroneous mental suggestion, then we can rebuke the error with the
truth of God's true creation, where everything is seen by Him as
being very good, and we de-personify the evil and find we are able to
forgive, and indeed that we are also forgiven. Did not Jesus say that
this was the penultimate of grace, to forgive others at all times.
You mention Ephesians 6:12. It is crucially important to this
argument to note that the verse begins with the phrase, 'For we
wrestle not against flesh and blood' . Is this not a clear indication
that the war is not against anything of actual substance, and that
the 'principalities, powers, the rulers of darkness, and spiritual
wickedness' are without any real substance, but are mental
suggestions. Evil can only start as a mental suggestion, or
temptation, the lure of the carnal mind. If Osama, or Hitler, etc.
had been rightly guided, would they have done their terrible deeds.
But they weren't, they listened to the lies of hatred and malice, and
became fixated, or mesmerised, by these mental assasins, and allowed
themselves to be governed by them, instead of by good, which is the
way, the truth and the life, or the kingdom of God.
Evil acts stem only from acting on the impulses of the carnal mind.
There is no evil entity which plays with our livesand wars against
God's righteous kingdom. Recognising that evil has no power, or that
Satan is not any entity, is truly liberating for the mind and the
soul. Seeing that evil is nothing more than an erroneous mental
suggestion, which can be rebuked by the truth, brings all the power
of truth to bear on the situation, and no lie can withstand the
faithful application of the truth. This is demonstrable at any time,
for the truth is always readily available. Did not our master say
that 'ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free'.
Personified evil is not the truth, it is a lie, and the father of it,
and the sooner you rebuke the lie with the truth of God's ever
present and wholly good creation, as founded in Genesis 1, then the
sooner you will experience that freedom which Jesus spoke of, and
discover the 'peace which passeth all understanding. Th!
is
is the benefit of forgiveness which Jesus refers to in Matt 6:14, 15.
YOu will never be able to forgive as long as you believe in
personified evil. This is the entire thrust of the sermon on the
mount. It is always good to read that blessed sermon and be refreshed
with the understanding of meekness before our Lord, the God of Truth
and Love.
YOu warn against thinking that Satan is not a personal entity. You
probaly believe that my position is a position of being gullible and
slackminded. NOthing could be further than the truth. It is even more
important that Christians, and all right thinking individuals,
realise the error of believing in personified evil. This is a
dangerous mesmeric suggestion which leads us away from the truth of
being, the truth wherein God sees all HIs creation, and it is very
good. Remember that this is GOd's kingdom, and in it He sees all,
for HE is omniscient, and omnipresent. THe BIble declares that He is
of purer eyes than to behold evil. GOd sees all his creation, and
behold, it is very good. WHat is it you are seeing? Are you seeing
GOd's creation, are you allowing God's creation to be seen. IT is
ever present, and eternal, and real, and there is nothing evil or
corrupt in it at all. THis is what the spiritual understanding of
Revelation reveals, where all evil is cast out of hea!
ven
, or the consciousness of eternal harmony, and the rule of GOd reigns
supreme and eternal, from Alpha to Omega. There is no evil there and
all tears are wiped away. THis is a present possibility, not some
mystical supernatural event.THe way to achieve this state of harmony
is to follow CHrist, or Truth, and to uphold the commandments,
beginning with the first, in which we have no other Gods before me
(Truth), especially the idea of anything evil in His creation. If you
believe in a personal devil, then you are making an idol, or another
god, which is clearly a violation of this first, and most important,
commandment.
I know that this may be a bit of a leap from traditional scholastic
theology, and I could expound upon this a great deal further, but I
will allow you to try to refute my argument first. My argument is
not with you, but with what I perceive to be an erroneous
interpretation of scripture, which has hindered the true, practical
application of scriptural truths for centuries. IT is the crux of the
debate of the nature of good and evil, and it will not stand the test
of scientific inquiry. For me, this issue is crucial to an
enlightened understanding of Christianity and of reality itself, so
if you want to have a constructive and objective debate about this, I
am more than glad to engage you.
Sincerely,
Stuart Kirkley
On Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:29:18
Vernon Jenkins wrote:
>Stuart,
>
>You wrote (in part):
>
>"I do not subscribe to the idea that the devil is an actual entity
>in any form or
>manner,
>but that it is simply an erroneous suggestion or temptation to
>listen to 'lies'
>instead of
>the truth, and nothing more, and that if we listen too intently to these
>suggestions, we
>end up actually endowing these mental suggestions with seeming illusive power.
>But
>if we learn to dismiss these 'lies' as Jesus did when he was tempted by the
>d'evil in the
>wilderness, then they can have no power over us, and as we are consistent in
>rebuking
>them, sometimes forcefully, as Jesus did when he retorted "Get thee behind me,
>Satan',
> then the devil will also flee from us and lo, angels will come and
>minister unto
>us, as
>they did to Jesus.Is this not simply demonstrating the power of
>truth over lies,
>of good
>over evil?"
>
>It would appear that ranked among Satan's greatest and most
>effective lies must
>be that
>of convincing Christians that he is a _non-person_ - ie that he
>(Satan) doesn't
>exist!
>That is why it is so important that we pay careful attention to what the Bible
>has to say on
>this matter - for there is no other authoritative source to which we can turn.
>Let us observe
>that Jesus refers to Satan as "...a liar, and the father of lies."
>(Jn.8:44). Can
>he be referring
>merely to "an erroneous suggestion"? I think not. Again, Job's
>troubles were the
>outcome
>of Satan's petitioning God to be allowed to do him (Job) harm. And what of the
>"principalities
>and powers" that we read about in Eph.6:12? - who control the thoughts and
>actions of evil
>men? Further, what of the evidence of these realities provided by the Book of
>Revelation?
>
>Surely Satan and his minions are as much personalities as ourselves.
>He and they
>wish to
>remain concealed that the lie may be perpetuated. Christians - of
>whatever hue -
>should
>have none of it!
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Vernon
>
>
>Stuart d Kirkley wrote:
>
>> Hey People,
>>
>> >From what I see, what started out as a simple question about the
>> >nature of good and evil has deteriorated (once again) into a
>> >shouting match and intellectual wrestling amongst the good
>> >subscribers to this list. WHy is it so hard to objectively listen to
>> >and evaluate what others are saying on this list? Isn't that what
>> >scientists are supposed to do, evaluate the evidence before them on
>> >an objective basis, and to do their best to not allow subjectivity
>> >(unless being creative) to creep into their research and possibly
>> >influence their findings, which is the only honest way to discover
>> >truth, which is what science is trying to do, isn't it? But time and
>> >again it seems that discussions on this list stray so far from that
>> >attitude of objectivity and sensibility. I find it quite frustrating
>> >myself, to the point that I don't pay that much attention to the
>> >postings anymore (althought I know there is still a lot of good
>> >wheat, but just so much chaff to sift through).
>>
>> This subject title caught my attention, and I thought Jay's
>> observations to be pretty clear and thoughtful. Maybe there is some
>> further background to this discussion which I don't know about.
>> Still, I found the replies to be mostly argumentive and a bit
>> derisive, if not a bit agressive. Jay's first response was quite
>> gracious and still was met with further derision. Perhaps the authors
>> of these missives should contemplate the substance of what Jay was
>> referring to, the nature of evil, and the insidiousness of the father
>> of lies. Isn't it fundamentally important to determine just what evil
>> is, and how it operates if we hope to be victorious in our good
>> fight. Remember we are all supposed to be Christian Soldiers, so let
>> us not try to trip up our fellow trenchmen as we forge onward, but
>> let us labour to understand just what it is they are really saying,
>> and if we feel some disagreement, let us voice it in the spirit of
>> Christ's precious charity, with understanding and grace, a!
>> nd
>> perhaps humility, if that's not asking too much.
>>
>> Recently, it occurred to me that the word 'devil' is probably a
>> contraction of 'do evil' = d'evil =devil. I wonder if anyone has any
>> further hard information that might support this. I do not subscribe
>> to the idea that the devil is an actual entity in any form or manner,
>> but that it is simply an erroneous suggestion or temptation to listen
>> to 'lies' instead of the truth, and nothing more, and that if we
>> listen too intently to these suggestions, we end up actually endowing
>> these mental suggestions with seeming illusive power. But if we learn
>> to dismiss these 'lies' as Jesus did when he was tempted by the
>> d'evil in the wilderness, then they can have no power over us, and as
>> we are consistent in rebuking them, sometimes forcefully, as Jesus
>> did when he retorted "Get thee behind me, Satan', then the devil will
>> also flee from us and lo, angels will come and minister unto us, as
>> they did to Jesus.Is this not simply demonstrating the power of truth
>> over lies, of good over evil? By !
>> kno
>> wing that evil is nothing more than a mental suggestion (sometimes an
>> aggresssive suggestion) can help us to know that it can be defeated
>> by an unequivocal rebuke of the lie by affirming the truth, and the
>> victory will be assured, because the victory is always God's and we
>> find that God is indeed the Truth, for God is Truth, and Divine Truth
>> conquers all suggetions of any other power, especially since this
>> Truth is all power, or omnipotence itself.
>> OK, I just wanted to put in my two cents worth. I hope nobody will
>> feel they need to jump down my throat because of it. Thanks, and God
>> bless.
>>
>> Stuart K.
>> --
>>
>> On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:36:13
>> Glenn Morton wrote:
>> >
>> >Jay Willingham wrote: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 6:10 AM
>> >
>> >>
>> >>"(A)rgumentum ad biblia". I like that.
>> >>
>> >>I do not regard your, Dave, or Glenn's positions as anything other than
>> >>arguable interpretations. You seem to regard them as irrefutable and get
>> >>downright testy if your dogma is challenged.
>> >
>> >This statement just begs that someone ask you how you view logic
>>itself. Is
>> >logic not the sine qua non of all knowledge, including theological
>> >knowledge? Is logic only a troublesome thing one can discard, streaking
>> >naked through life in the ecstasy of illogic? Logic requires that what you
>> >apply to your opponent can be applied to you. Have you not learned that in
>> >law courts?
>> >
>> >I have a real question. Have you ever actually taken a logic course--I mean
>> >a full semester dose of syllogisms, Venn diagrams and the many logical
>> >fallacies? David is a philosopher who would have taught the stuff, I did
>> >grad work in philosophy where I took Logic, Symbolic Logice,and Logic and
>> >the Scientific method etc. What you have commited is an advocation of an ad
>> >hoc hypotheses, (i.e., the Devil fools everyone on Earth except me). Logic
>> >isn't dogma, it is fundamental.
>> >
>> >
>> >>I am not condemning you and am sorry if you got that impression.
>> >
>> >I didn't get the impression you were condemning me. I thought you were
>> >being excessively illogical, which may be oxymoronic, for how can one be
>> >moderately illogical? It is like being moderately pregnant.
>> >
>> >
>> >glenn
>> >
>> >see http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/dmd.htm
>> >for lots of creation/evolution information
>> >anthropology/geology/paleontology/theology\
>> >personal stories of struggle
>> >
>>
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