Re: deception in perception

From: Jay Willingham (jaywillingham@cfl.rr.com)
Date: Wed Jul 24 2002 - 17:42:01 EDT

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    Yes, I have studied logic and its limitations, Dr. Spock.

    Logic must accept the existence of alternative explanations when there =
    is no dispositive empirical proof. How does one prove that the ancient =
    creatures classed as hominids were not merely men, or animals who failed =
    to compete with man? We have gone around and around about the =
    acceptable variation in the human genome.

    Logic is not the sine qua non of all theological truth. It is of the =
    scientific method. Logic includes the existence of mystery and the =
    unexplained by concluding that some things cannot be logically explained =
    within our frame of refernce. Logic in man's eyes is not the same as it =
    is in God's eyes. Yes, I have already quoted the Bible for that premise =
    in this line.

    You have dispositive proof of natural selection/microevolution which you =
    illogically allege is dispositive proof of macroevolution. As your =
    arguments are not without basis in empirical fact, your conclusions are =
    illogical when they categorically exclude alternative explanations.

    You are falling prey to the same tactic I have read being used against =
    you, unless I can point to specific courses in logic I have taken at the =
    post graduate level, you assume that my mind does not work logically.

    Logic is our desperate effort to understand our existence, some aspects =
    of which we will not understand this side of the veil, per, yes, another =
    Bible verse already cited.

    For instance, a philosophy course I took at Duke was on the structure of =
    aesthetics. There is a subject amenable to only a very "soft" =
    application of logic.

    I have also previously pointed out to you how in your website you make =
    educated guesses friendly to your pet hypothesis as to the cause of =
    various geologic features or parts of the fossil record and then =
    illogically conclude that those interpretations are proof positive of =
    your hypothesis.

    When I assert that isotope decay rates may not be constant and that =
    creation may have resulted in isotopes in various states of decay, the =
    response is, if God did not create something a scientific, logical =
    method can readily describe and and explain as truth then God is is =
    deceiving me and must be Satan. =20

    Your logical syllogism seems to say "God's mind conceived and created =
    the earth. My mind can understand all there is to know about the earth. =
      I can understand the mind of God."

    I do not believe that the mind of man can understand all there is to =
    know about the earth. =20

      Where does that leave faith and hope in things not seen? Yes, another =
    verse, hang it all.

    I am sure the old serpent fools me, too. I never said I was right and =
    you were wrong. What I did say was we are probably arguing about =
    endless genealogies.

    Jay

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
    -------

    From: "Glenn Morton" <glenn.morton@btinternet.com>

    =20
    > This statement just begs that someone ask you how you view logic =
    itself. Is
    > logic not the sine qua non of all knowledge, including theological
    > knowledge? Is logic only a troublesome thing one can discard, =
    streaking
    > naked through life in the ecstasy of illogic? Logic requires that what =
    you
    > apply to your opponent can be applied to you. Have you not learned =
    that in
    > law courts?
    >=20
    > I have a real question. Have you ever actually taken a logic course--I =
    mean
    > a full semester dose of syllogisms, Venn diagrams and the many logical
    > fallacies? David is a philosopher who would have taught the stuff, I =
    did
    > grad work in philosophy where I took Logic, Symbolic Logice,and Logic =
    and
    > the Scientific method etc. What you have commited is an advocation of =
    an ad
    > hoc hypotheses, (i.e., the Devil fools everyone on Earth except me). =
    Logic
    > isn't dogma, it is fundamental.
    >=20
    >=20
    > I didn't get the impression you were condemning me. I thought you =
    were
    > being excessively illogical, which may be oxymoronic, for how can one =
    be
    > moderately illogical? It is like being moderately pregnant.
    >=20
    >=20
    > glenn
    >=20

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    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
    <DIV>Yes, I have studied logic and its limitations, Dr. Spock.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Logic must accept the existence of alternative explanations when =
    there is=20
    no dispositive empirical proof.&nbsp; How does one prove that the =
    ancient=20
    creatures classed as hominids were not merely men, or&nbsp;animals who =
    failed to=20
    compete with man?&nbsp; We have gone around and around about the =
    acceptable=20
    variation in the human genome.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Logic is not the <EM>sine qua non</EM> of all theological=20
    truth.&nbsp;&nbsp;It is of the scientific method. &nbsp;Logic includes =
    the=20
    existence of mystery and the unexplained by concluding that some things =
    cannot=20
    be logically explained within our frame of refernce.&nbsp; Logic in =
    man's eyes=20
    is not the same as it is in God's eyes.&nbsp; Yes, I have already quoted =
    the=20
    Bible for that premise in this line.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>You have&nbsp;dispositive proof of natural selection/microevolution =
    which=20
    you illogically allege is dispositive proof of macroevolution.&nbsp; As =
    your=20
    arguments are not without basis in empirical fact, your conclusions are=20
    illogical when they categorically exclude alternative =
    explanations.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>You are falling prey to the same tactic I have read being used =
    against you,=20
    unless&nbsp;I can point to specific courses in logic I have taken at the =
    post=20
    graduate level, you assume that my mind does not work logically.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Logic is our desperate effort to understand our existence, some =
    aspects of=20
    which we will not understand this side of the veil, per, yes, another =
    Bible=20
    verse already cited.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>For instance,&nbsp;a philosophy course I took at Duke was on the =
    structure=20
    of aesthetics.&nbsp; There is a subject amenable to only =
    a&nbsp;very&nbsp;"soft"=20
    application of logic.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I have also previously pointed out to you how in your website you =
    make=20
    educated guesses friendly to your pet hypothesis as to the cause of =
    various=20
    geologic features or parts of the fossil record and then illogically =
    conclude=20
    that those interpretations are proof positive of your hypothesis.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>When I assert that isotope decay rates may not be constant and that =

    creation may have resulted in isotopes in various states of decay, the =
    response=20
    is, if God did not create something&nbsp;a scientific, =
    logical&nbsp;method can=20
    readily describe and&nbsp;and explain as truth then God is is deceiving =
    me and=20
    must be Satan.&nbsp; </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Your logical syllogism seems to&nbsp;say "God's mind conceived and =
    created=20
    the earth.&nbsp; My mind can understand all there is to know about the=20
    earth.&nbsp; I can understand the mind of God."</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I do not believe that the mind of man can understand all there is =
    to know=20
    about the earth.&nbsp; </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;Where does that leave faith and hope in things not =
    seen?&nbsp; Yes,=20
    another verse, hang it all.</DIV></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I am sure the old serpent fools me, too.&nbsp; I never said I was =
    right and=20
    you were wrong.&nbsp; What I did say was we are probably arguing about =
    endless=20
    genealogies.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Jay</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>
    <HR>
    </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>
    <DIV>From: "Glenn Morton" &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:glenn.morton@btinternet.com">glenn.morton@btinternet.com</=
    A>&gt;</DIV></DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV> <BR>&gt; This statement just begs that someone ask you =
    how you=20
    view logic itself.&nbsp; Is<BR>&gt; logic not the sine qua non of all =
    knowledge,=20
    including theological<BR>&gt; knowledge?&nbsp; Is logic only a =
    troublesome thing=20
    one can discard, streaking<BR>&gt; naked through life in the ecstasy of =
    illogic?=20
    Logic requires that what you<BR>&gt; apply to your opponent can be =
    applied to=20
    you.&nbsp; Have you not learned that in<BR>&gt; law courts?<BR>&gt; =
    <BR>&gt; I=20
    have a real question. Have you ever actually taken a logic course--I=20
    mean<BR>&gt; a full semester dose of syllogisms, Venn diagrams and the =
    many=20
    logical<BR>&gt; fallacies?&nbsp; David is a philosopher who would have =
    taught=20
    the stuff, I did<BR>&gt; grad work in philosophy where I took Logic, =
    Symbolic=20
    Logice,and&nbsp; Logic and<BR>&gt; the Scientific method etc. What you =
    have=20
    commited is an advocation of an ad<BR>&gt; hoc hypotheses, (i.e., the =
    Devil=20
    fools everyone on Earth except me).&nbsp; Logic<BR>&gt; isn't dogma, it =
    is=20
    fundamental.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I didn't get the impression you =
    were=20
    condemning me.&nbsp; I thought you were<BR>&gt; being excessively =
    illogical,=20
    which may be oxymoronic, for how can one be<BR>&gt; moderately =
    illogical? It is=20
    like being moderately pregnant.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; glenn<BR>&gt;=20
    <BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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