Re: Coal and YEC models

From: Bill Payne (bpayne15@juno.com)
Date: Wed Jul 24 2002 - 00:04:48 EDT

  • Next message: robert rogland: "my last reply to Burgy"

    On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:05:55 -0700 "Glenn Morton"
    <glenn.morton@btinternet.com> writes:

    > Austin's model also has another very severe problem that I have pointed
    out
    > before and received no satisfactory explanation for (which is why I
    don't
    > intend to do much debate with Bill). Until he can answer questions like
    the
    > one I asked the other day about the vast quantity of biological
    material in
    > the coal we observe--it couldn't come from one biosphere.

    OK, Glenn, that's a fair question. We know that peat compresses 3 to 5
    times to make coal. For the moment let's assume that a global flood
    stripped 100% of the vegetation from the continents and all of the
    vegetation became a floating mat and eventually became coal on the
    continent where it originated. Let's also assume that the entire earth
    had a tropical climate with mature, lush rain-forest growth.

    If all of the vegetation from an acre of rain forest, including the
    roots, were piled up on that acre as peat, how thick would the vegetation
    be?

    Looking at coal maps of the US, from memory (I can check this when I get
    to the office), less than 25% of the US is underlain by coal. I know
    Alaska has some coal, I don't know about Canada other than Nova Scotia
    (Joggins), which has some coal. Let's take the North American continent
    as a unit - that would include all of the US, Canada and Alaska. How
    many square miles are in this NA continent, and what is the volume of
    coal in this area? If you run the numbers on this Glenn, please give as
    much detail on the coal as you can, i.e. list the coal basins or fields,
    the seams within each field and the average thickness/areal extent of
    each, etc. If a seam is included which extends out beneath the ocean,
    such as in Nova Scotia, then that same area needs to be included in the
    land mass. I think there may be some shallow seas in northern Canada
    that may have once been land; if you know that they were then they should
    be included in the land area. The Great Lakes and all other
    lakes/rivers/swamps should be included as land since those areas may have
    once supported forests. Except as noted above, let's leave the
    continental shelves out at this point.

    The objective of this obviously is to get the average thickness of peat
    over the NA continent and compare that to the average thickness of coal
    from within the NA continent if all of the coal (including what has been
    mined, of course) were spread out evenly over the continent.

    > The floating mat theory has another observational problem. All the coal
    in
    > the world is on the continental platforms. That is not to say none is
    under
    > the oceans because continental platforms extend a bit beneath the
    > oceans. There is no coal in the deep deep water >600' water depth. If
    the
    > vegetational mats were floating around on the waters of the global
    flood,
    > why on earth does NONE of the material drop in the ocean basins. What
    > mechanisms restrict coal to the continents? This has absolutely no
    answer
    > within the Austin paradigm advocated by Bill.

    You've asked me this before and I offered an explanation, but you (like
    me) seem to have a propensity to forget things that don't fit with your
    model. In deep oceans, organic fragments would be disseminated rather
    than collecting in a bed.

    > The reason I see no need to debate Bill is not because I have never
    > seriously considered the YEC model (given that I was a publishing YEC
    for
    > years). It is because Bill, like many young-earthers, look at any
    > unexplained or difficult to explain item and think it proves their case
    > while at the same time they fail to see the bigger picture and failings
    of
    > their theory. For the purposes of determining if there was a global
    flood,
    > it doesn't matter what sedimentary features are there if there is too
    much
    > coal to be the result of the burial of one pre-flood biosphere or if
    the
    > model for coal deposition can't explain the geographic distribution.

    Ah, now we're getting somewhere. "It doesn't matter what sedimentary
    features are there" is another way of saying "don't bother me with your
    empirical observations, I've got my straw man all propped up." How long
    did it take you to learn to ignore data? Is that something you learned
    as a YEC and just carried over into OEC?

    Bill

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