--On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:16:17 Dick Fischer wrote: >Stuart Kirkley added: >Sender: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu >Precedence: bulk > >>Perhaps Dick would like to contemplate what the Psalmist was >>considering when he wrote Psalm 8: 'What is man... and the son of >>man...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast >>crowned him with glory and honour...' > >Please don't confuse me with the Bible answer man. When I venture >past Genesis 12, I encounter the same prickles everyone else does. >This is what I said in my book: > >The phrase "son of man" appears in both the Old and New Testaments. >It can be perplexing when 'adam is translated as "man," especially >when a word for generic man or mankind was used in the original, 'ish >in Hebrew or 'enash in Aramaic. Psalm 8:4 is a case in point: "What >is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou >visitest him?" How are men different from sons of men? Why the >redundancy? Aren't all men sons of men? Yes, but not all men are >sons of Adam! God is "mindful" of "man" ('ish), but it is the sons >of Adam ('adam) that He visits." This verse reflects the special >relationship Israel enjoyed. > >>The Psalmist seemed to have a higher idea of God's man than what you >>have presented here. Is this not the man of Genesis 1:26-28, whom >>God saw, and behold, was found to be very good. > >Yes, I believe it is. "God's man," I believe, was Adam.
SK writes:
I have to differ with you here. This is what I believe: God's man, the man of the true creation, the first account of creation in Genesis 1, is Christ, made in the image and likeness of God, whom God saw and beheld as very good. ANd the heavens and all the host of them were complete, and God rested, and blessed the Sabbath. The first account is complete and whole and blessed by God. Adam is not the same creation, for he is formed after this account, and of the dust of the ground. If Adam is God's man, made in His image and likeness, then you are tacitly saying that God is dust. That is quite a departure from the idea of God as Spirit, which the New Testament teaches.
The second account is a false account of creation: man made of the dust of the ground, what a poor imitation of the grand truth of spiritual creation already presented. The story of Adams creation is but an allegory designed to illustrate the error of believing in mortal existence, as opposed to the grand truth of immortal spiritual creation presented in the first chapter. This is clarified further when Paul declares in 1 Cor 15:46, when referring to Adam: 'Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual,...' a direct reference to the spiritual account of creation in Gen 1.
If Adam is God's man , why does Paul state 'As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive' 15:22 ? Is not this whole chapter explaining the difference between Adam and Christ, between the false man, and the true man, between the real and the unreal. God made man in His image and likeness. Is this not the Christ, the true idea of God's creation, in whom we are all made heirs, joint heirs with Christ, and the blessed children of God, as we learn to understand the spiritual creation as presented by Christ, the way, the truth and the life.
respectfully, Stuart K.
> >>Is this not the man which the Psalmist again refers to when he >>exhorts us to uphold in our thought in Ps 37:37 " Mark the perfect >>man and behold the >>upright: for the end of that man is peace'. > >I think the meaning here is in light of what goes before: > >Psalm 37:35-36: "I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading >himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was >not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." > >The psalmist, David, is comparing righteous men as against the unrighteous. > >>>You may think that there were humans worthy of salvation earlier than >>>God thought so. But I trust in God's timing. And if you don't like >>>God's timing, you are stuck with it anyway. Probably the only reason >>>I find comfort in God's timing is because I have had a longer period >>>of time to think about it. Sure I have questions. Why did God >>>create Satan or the rest of the heavenly host that fell to earth in >>>Satan's rebellion against God? Why not snuff them all out Ananias >>>and Sapphira style? (Acts 5:1-5). >>> >>>The fact is that His ways are higher, and His thought are higher, and >>>we aren't privy, except that He has made a book available to us, and >>>through the Holy Spirit, there are those who He may communicate with >>>as it pleasures Him. But there seems to be a few things He doesn't >>>bother to tell us outright. However, if we have submitted ourselves >>>to Jesus Christ and have questions, search His Word, are willing to >>>be taught, have a humble attitude, and do an honest search, we may be >>>rewarded. >> >>Well said, but in referring to what I wrote above, and in >>consideration of what you have written here, it could only do you >>good to consider again what the Psalmist meant. The writer of Hebrews >>had a pretty good handle on this issue and gives a very good >>summation in Hebrews 2: 6-18. > >Amen. > >Dick Fischer - The Origins Solution - www.orisol.com >"The answer we should have known about 150 years ago" >--=====================_985031==_.ALT >Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" > ><html> >Stuart Kirkley added:<br><br> ><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Perhaps Dick would like to >contemplate what the Psalmist was <br> >considering when he wrote Psalm 8: 'What is man... and the son of <br> >man...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast ><br> >crowned him with glory and honour...'</blockquote><br> >Please don't confuse me with the Bible answer man.Ý When I venture >past Genesis 12, I encounter the same prickles everyone else does.Ý >This is what I said in my book:<br><br> ><font face="Arial, Helvetica">The phrase "son of man" appears >in both the Old and New Testaments.Ý It can be perplexing when ><i>'adam</i> is translated as "man," especially when a word for >generic man or mankind was used in the original, <i>'ish</i> in Hebrew or ><i>'enash</i> in Aramaic.Ý Psalm 8:4 is a case in point: "What >is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou >visitest him?"Ý How are men different from sons of men?Ý >Why the redundancy?Ý Aren't all men sons of men?Ý Yes, but not >all men are sons of Adam!Ý God is "mindful" of >"man" (<i>'ish</i>), but it is the sons of Adam (<i>'adam</i>) >that He visits."Ý This verse reflects the special relationship >Israel enjoyed.<br><br> ></font><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>The Psalmist seemed to have >a higher idea of God's man than what you <br> >have presented here. Is this not the man of Genesis 1:26-28,Ý whom ><br> >God saw, and behold, was found to be very good.</blockquote><br> >Yes, I believe it is.Ý "God's man," I believe, was >Adam.<br><br> ><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Is this not the man which the >Psalmist again refers to when he exhorts us to uphold in our thought in >Ps 37:37 " Mark the perfect man and behold the <br> >upright: for the end of that man is peace'. </blockquote><br> >I think the meaning here is in light of what goes before:<br><br> >Psalm 37:35-36: "I have seen the wicked in great power, and >spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he >was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."<br><br> >The psalmist, David, is comparing righteous men as against the >unrighteous.<br><br> ><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>>You may think that there were >humans worthy of salvation earlier than<br> >>God thought so.Ý But I trust in God's timing.Ý And if you >don't like<br> >>God's timing, you are stuck with it anyway.Ý Probably the only >reason<br> >>I find comfort in God's timing is because I have had a longer >period<br> >>of time to think about it.Ý Sure I have questions.Ý Why did >God<br> >>create Satan or the rest of the heavenly host that fell to earth >in<br> >>Satan's rebellion against God?Ý Why not snuff them all out >Ananias<br> >>and Sapphira style? (Acts 5:1-5).<br> >><br> >>The fact is that His ways are higher, and His thought are higher, >and<br> >>we aren't privy, except that He has made a book available to us, >and<br> >>through the Holy Spirit, there are those who He may communicate >with<br> >>as it pleasures Him.Ý But there seems to be a few things He >doesn't<br> >>bother to tell us outright.Ý However, if we have submitted >ourselves<br> >>to Jesus Christ and have questions, search His Word, are willing >to<br> >>be taught, have a humble attitude, and do an honest search, we may >be<br> >>rewarded.<br><br> >Well said, but in referring to what I wrote above, and in <br> >consideration of what you have written here, it could only do you <br> >good to consider again what the Psalmist meant. The writer of Hebrews ><br> >had a pretty good handle on this issue and gives a very good <br> >summation in Hebrews 2: 6-18.</blockquote><br> >Amen.<br><br> >Dick Fischer - <i>The Origins Solution</i> - ><a href="http://www.orisol.com/" eudora="autourl"><font >color="#0000FF"><u>www.orisol.com</a><br> ></u></font>"The answer we should have known about 150 years >ago" </html> > >--=====================_985031==_.ALT-- >
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