Hi Shaun
The problem for me with siding with ID crowd is three-fold. Firstly, the
arguments of Johnson are primarily metaphysical and are built on what
is to me a
very poor understanding of God's action in the world. Therefore if I
support ID,
I also Johnson's poor (in fact downright heretical) theology. Because ID is a
big tent, this means I am also supporting metaphysics (theology is not a broad
enough word) with which I strongly disagree, such as deists, moonies, and
raelians. I agree with Johnson that the extreme materialism of
Provine, Dawkins
et al. must be opposed, however because their materialism is metaphysical in
nature it must be opposed by good metaphysics, not something so vague
and shonky
as to be acceptable to deists, moonies, raelians - and Christians. I mistrust a
metaphysical tent so large as to include those mentioned above - but
so narrow as
to exclude evangelical, reformed, and generally Christians who happen
to support
organic evolution.
Secondly, the palaeontological, ecological, and biogeographical evidence for
descent with modification is for me so overwhelming that to oppose it
is to place
oneself firmly into the flat earth and geocentric camp. This does
not mean that
some, indeed many aspects of current organic evolutionary theories are above
critcism, they are most certainly not. But the ID crowd almost
completely ignore
or misrepresent it this evidence. They have proved incapable of correction on
these failings.
Thirdly I utterly disagree with the metaphysics of Dawkins et al.
However their
science is usually OK. It is therefore more honest for me to say I agree with
the science, but I disagree with the metaphysical conclusions they
draw from it,
or rather the metaphysical agenda to which they subject their science.
Fourthly, the refusal of most ID to come clean about the age of the earth and
universe to me is suspicious. It smacks of a strategic ploy to gain
support from
the YEC movement. Although Johnson once distanced himself from YEC and Behe
stated he believed in an old earth, this has been down played. Of
course if they
did they might loose the support of YECs, who have used ID arguments with great
enthusiasm. Of course it raises the suspicion amongst many
scientists that ID is
only a front for YEC. Not only to I find this dishonest, it also
shows the lack
of scientific credibility of the ID movement.
Jon
Shuan Rose wrote:
> messiah! Impact on ID?
> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:03:08 -0400
> Sender: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> Precedence: bulk
>
> Presumably ID is supposed to be a big tent uniting theists (all of whom
> believe that God is the creator?/designer? against antireligious
> evolutionists, like Dawkins, Dennett, Provine etc. Yet it has not worked out
> that way, with many religious thinkers attacking ID. Why? Are'nt Phillip,
> Jonathon et al. on our side , fighting against the forces of darkness, led
> by the Lord of Hellfire himself, Dawkins? (OK, maybe he isn't THE Lord of
> Hellfire, but IMO he may be one of his minions :-)
> Well, Glenn, George? Do you think you are giving aid and comfort to the
> enemy by "lining up" with , say, Dawkins & Eugene Scott against defenders of
> theism like Phillip Johnson and Jonathon Wells.? Even if they are wrong
> about a few technical and theological issues, shouldn't we being lining up
> with them ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
> Behalf Of george murphy
> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 7:37 PM
> To: Glenn Morton
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: Moon proclaims he is messiah! Impact on ID?
>
> I sent my earlier post before looking at the item Glenn refers to
> below. Having done so, I can heartily recommend it as the funniest
> religious
> news item I've seen in many years. Note especially the following:
> "At the celestial event, Muhammed is said to have led three cheers,
> while God submitted a letter stating, 'I believe in the True Parents.'"
> Just try to picture it. Words fail me.
>
> George
>
> Glenn Morton wrote:
>
> > In a move which surely must cause a bit of embarrassment for the ID
> group,
> > Phil Johnson and other ID members, Rev. Sun Myung Moon has proclaimed
> "that
> > Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha - even God - have told him he is now 'the Savior,
> > Messiah and King of Kings of all of humanity!'"
> > http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/3641062.htm
> >
> > This may have some impact on the ID movement but to explain why requires
> > some background.
> >
> > Keith Miller, in Dec. 1999 published a note with Jonathan Well's web
> papers
> > proclaiming that he was a Moonie. Keith attached a note from Phillip
> Johnson
> > at the bottom. Johnson acknowledges that he knew Wells is a Moonie but
> > frankly expresses a big yawn for that knowledge. I posted a response to
> > Keith's note outlining what I viewed as the ID movement's lack of concern
> > for Scriptural Christianity.
> > http://www.calvin.edu/archive/asa/199912/0024.html.
> >
> > I also had been having an e-mail conversations with Paul Nelson just
> > before Keith's note. Paul had already confirmed to me that Wells was a
> > Moonie and a fine fellow. He said that they merely disagreed about
> theology.
> > I should hope so! But at what point do our attempts to create an
> apologetic
> > become worthless for our faith?
> >
> > I think the question for the evangelical supporters of the ID movement
> and
> > the Discovery Institute is: Should we support someone with views like
> this?
> > Will Nelson and colleagues like Steve Meyer, in light of Moon's
> > proclamation that he is the 'King of King for all humanity!" continue to
> > encourage evangelical publishers to publish Well's stuff? Wells who now
> must
> > believe that Sun Myung Moon is the Messiah seems to hold values quite at
> > odds with conventional Christianity. It seems to me that ID has become
> so
> > theologically neutral as to be of no value to Christianity.
> >
> > glenn
> >
> > see http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/dmd.htm
> > for lots of creation/evolution information
> > anthropology/geology/paleontology/theology\
> > personal stories of struggle
-- "It is not easy to see how the more extreme forms of nationalism can long survive when men have seen the earth as a pale crescent dwindling against the stars, until at last they look for it in vain".Arthur C. Clarke
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