RE: Response to: What does the Creation lack?

From: Stephen J. Krogh (panterragroup@mindspring.com)
Date: Fri Nov 09 2001 - 16:01:31 EST

  • Next message: bivalve: "information from What does the creation lack?"

    I believe this was posted by Michael Roberts several months ago, but it may
    help you out in figuring the time-line.

    <quote>

    Geology and Genesis, 1790 to 1860:
    To put it simplistically Geology took off as a science in the 1790s under
    Hutton in Scotland, Smith in England and Cuvier and Brogniart in France when
    conclusive evidence was found for ordering strata and showing a vast age of
    the earth. Hutton's chief spokesman was the Rev John Playfair and Smith's
    the Revs B.Richardson and J.Townshend. Most educated people accepted the new
    findings and even the church press showed little opposition. From 1810 there
    was much geological fieldwork and in 1815 Smith produced the first
    geological map of England and Wales. Geologists came from various
    backgrounds with a considerable number of clergy, often Evangelical. The
    1820s was the heyday of clerical catastrophic geology of Buckland and
    Sedgwick, who held that strata were deposited over a long period of time
    (millions of years) in a succession of catastrophes or deluges, the Noachian
    being the last. In his Principles of Geology (1830) Lyell took over their
    methods and timescale and replaced catastrophism with uniformitarianism.
    Lyell has become a mythic figure with claims that he introduced notions of
    an ancient earth. That is bunk and has been discredited by such historians
    as Rudwick and Gould. As the vast of age of the earth was widely known in
    1790 it cannot be the case as Lyell was born in 1797, unless miracles can
    happen!

    Not all was smooth sailing and from the mid-twenties a vocal group, the
    Anti- or Scriptural Geologists, tried to show that geologists were mistaken
    and that Creation took place in 6 days. This disparate group included clergy
    and laity with a Dean of York, an Oxford Professor and Brande, Faraday's
    colleague at the Royal Institution. Scientifically their writings were
    worthless by the standards of the day and were attacked by such orthodox
    Christians as Conybeare, Buckland, Sedgwick, Sumner and Pye Smith. Lyell
    mocked from the sidelines. To give an idea of numbers, during this period I
    can name at least six Deans of Cathedrals, a dozen Bishops and half a dozen
    clerical Oxbridge professors, who actively supported geology. In the period
    1825-1850 the vast majority of Christians accepted geology, but a small and
    noisy minority did not. It is vital to get it in proportion. Andrew White in
    History of the Warfare of Science and Theology claimed that the
    Anti-geologists were the Orthodox Party thus distorting our understanding.
    By the 1850s the Anti-geologists were a spent force and even such an extreme
    Evangelical as J.Cumming accepted geology. Almost the only exception was
    Phillip Gosse in Omphalos (1857) as mentioned above. The suggestion that God
    had written on the earth’s rock a superfluous lie hit a sour note with most
    of Gosse’s fellow Christians. Though his book stirred some interest at
    first, it soon fell into disfavor.

    The Dawn of Evolution 1859
    The Origin of Species was the seminal work of the decade and attracted great
    interest. The popular perception is that it was violently objected to by the
    Christian Church as it "questioned both the literal accuracy of the first
    chapters of Genesis and the argument from design for the existence of God.”
    The first part of this quote from Altholz is simply untrue as no educated
    Christians believed in 4004 BC in 1860, except a few ex-Plymouth Brethren.
    Design in the strict Paleyan sense may have been killed by Darwin, but many
    kept to some kind of Design; Kingsley, Gray, Temple, Birks, and Hensleigh
    and Julia Wedgwood (Darwin's Cousins). The main religious concern was
    whether our alleged ape-dom would destroy our morality as Wilberforce made
    clear. The responses to Darwin are fascinating and varied and no simple
    answer can be given. Initially some scientists were in favor - Huxley and
    Hooker, some not sure - Lyell, and many against, notably the leading
    physicists and geologists. Of Anglican and Scottish Presbyterian clergy
    (some of considerable scientific ability) none were literalists, and of 30
    or so responses I have studied they are equally divided between being for,
    against or undecided. All 30 accepted geological findings and a scientific
    outlook.

    Wilberforce's objections were largely geological, but felt our ape-dom would
    destroy Christianity. The evangelical Canon H.B. Tristram of Durham was a
    migratory bird ornithologist. He accepted and applied natural selection to
    birds in 1858, after reading Darwin's Linnean Society paper. He went to
    Oxford in 1860 an evolutionist but after hearing Wilberforce and Hooker
    (Huxley spoke too quietly to be heard) he changed his mind. A year or so
    later he became an evolutionist again and used creation and evolution
    synonymously.

    Well, was there conflict? There was not CONFLICT, but there was conflict.
    The reviews and the meeting at Oxford show that there was controversy both
    religious and scientific. The only example of ecclesiastical prejudice I can
    find is the sacking of Prof Buchman of Cirencester Agricultural College,
    whose evolutionary ideas offended the Anglican management. By 1866 even the
    Victoria Institute were tolerating evolution, even if some members objected.
    Within two decades, most educated Christians accepted some kind of
    evolution, even if, like Wallace, limited evolution to non-humans.

    Whence Conflict between Science and Religion? The idea that there has been
    a serious conflict is widely held but recent studies have challenged this,
    whether they focus narrowly on Huxley and Wilberforce or look more widely.
    The conclusion by Lindberg and Numbers, Gould, Brooke and Russell is that
    the conflict thesis comes from a reading back into events by some of the
    protagonists of the 19th century. Huxley and Hooker embellished their
    controversies with the church, Edmund Gosse in Father and Son made his
    father to be typical of Christians, Andrew White's massive The Warfare of
    Science with Theology (1896) is so flawed as to be worthless, despite its
    massive documentation which often cannot be followed up, Darwin's claims
    that at Cambridge he did not "doubt the strict and literal truth of every
    word in the Bible" are not true, Leslie Stephen's concerns with the
    historicity of the Ark has been shown by Sir Owen Chadwick to be the product
    of a lively imagination and many evangelicals had come to Colenso's
    conclusions about Noah some 30 years before 1860. Most of these examples are
    referred to in serious works of history but a little historical research
    refutes them. This does raise a few questions on Altholz's assertion that
    for Huxley and others "Truthfulness had replaced belief as the ultimate
    standard." The conflict thesis in its classic form needs to be consigned to
    the bin, BUT there is an opposite danger - the total denial of any conflict
    whatever and the claim that there was harmony. That is as erroneous. The
    other danger is to ignore popular perception as this did and still does
    reckon there is a conflict. To conclude, there was some conflict, which has
    various causes; the wish of some scientists to break away from church
    involvement, the concerns of some that evolution may eliminate God. There
    was also conflict of re-adjustment. However, it is best seen as "a storm in
    a Victorian tea-cup" exaggerated for polemical purposes.

    There was no serious battle of Genesis and Geology, but a few Christians
    objected to geology. By 1860 biblical literalism was virtually extinct but
    was revived in the USA in 1961 in the form of Creationism. Neither was there
    a battle royal over evolution. In 1860, hardly any educated people were
    still literalists. Until this is firmly grasped, it is impossible to assess
    the relationship of Christianity and Science and to consider exactly what
    were - and are - the problems.

    <quote/>

    Stephen J. Krogh, P.G.
    The PanTerra Group
    http://panterragroup.home.mindspring.com/
    ================================

    -----Original Message-----
    From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
    Behalf Of Woodward Norm Civ WRALC/TIEDM
    Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 2:27 PM
    To: asA@calvin.edu
    Subject: RE: Response to: What does the Creation lack?

    But the question I was addressing in the post to which you responded was,
    Is God the "agent responsible" for causing each one of these events to occur
    at some specific location and time? There is a theological tradition that
    appears set on ascribing to God both the power and desire to be in absolute
    CONTROL of each event, one by one. In the context of that view of God, it
    would appear that God was the "agent responsible" for choosing to cause the
    Lisbon earthquake and the death of Darwin's daughter. It's that picture of a
    micromanaging and controlling divine agency to which Darwin was, I believe,
    reacting with revulsion.

    ---I will confess that I have not studied about Darwin, not even to see the
    short bio on the recent PBS miniseries, but I find this rather interesting.
    Could someone direct me to a reference about this incident, preferably
    on-line?

    However, I would like a sneak peek at a clue…did these events occur before
    he began his work in Naturalistic Evolution, or after?

    I am just trying to figure out the possible motivations of the major players
    in this conflict.

    Norm



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