Re: New thread: Mathematical truth/God's limitations

From: James W Stark (stark2301@voyager.net)
Date: Thu Sep 06 2001 - 08:56:41 EDT

  • Next message: James W Stark: "Re: Divine limits"

    on 9/5/01 12:41 PM, george murphy at gmurphy@raex.com wrote:

    > James W Stark wrote:
    >
    >> on 9/4/01 11:00 PM, george murphy at gmurphy@raex.com wrote:
    >> .............................. Paul's statement about Christ's kenosis in
    >> Phil.2:5-11 clearly point to some sort of self-limitation on the part of God.
    >> We are to start from there >>> & adapt our understanding of God's being &
    >> will to that rather than the other way around.
    >>
    >>> Shalom, George
    >>>
    >> Our evidence of God's self-limitation is not confined to scripture.
    >> Does not God's gift of freedom imply that God chose to limit God's freedom?
    >> This seems very true to me.
    >>
    > Belief in divine self-limitation should be based on God's revelation of God's
    > own character in Christ and in the history of Israel of which Christ is the
    > culmination. That belief can help us to understand how God is at work in the
    > world that is described by scientific laws: That's the thrust of my articles
    > in the March 2001 PSCF and in the June 1998 Zygon. But an attempt to determine
    > God's character on the basis of our experience of the world makes the same
    > mistake as the view I criticized. We are all too prone to argue selectively
    > in order to end up with the kind of God we think God ought to be. I would be a
    > bit wary about arguing that any kind of creaturely freedom requires a
    > limitation of divine freedom or vice versa. It doesn't have to be a
    > zero-sum game.
    >
    > Shalom, George

    Thanks, this was a stimulating response for me. I re-read your article in
    PSCF with a new slant that I missed the first time.

    It raises the issue of what reference for truth that we all ought to use.
    You, of course, promote Christ, the cross, and the history of Israel. That
    reference should guide what we choose to believe about the full nature of
    God as well as our perception of God's self-limitation.

    Since we all start with self-referencing as our standard of truth, we tend
    to perceive God as "the kind of God we think God ought to be". Thus, our
    personal worldviews are our standards of reference for truth. They become
    our personal filters for truth. Our perceptions of God and truth will
    continue to change as we allow our worldviews to change. We must use our
    free will. Those who resist change to their personal worldview will tend to
    interpret free will as a fixed program.

     Since Jesus chose to use intentional change rather than force to encourage
    moral change, God then will not force any change upon us. God limits God's
    use of force to the laws that God created and we seek to discover in all
    fields of study. Since Jesus' life was a perfect witness to his use of
    free will, our task in life is to intentionally change our personal
    worldviews to become more like that of Jesus. However, it will be a
    continuing task that will need the Guidance of God. We cannot leap to some
    estimate of a fixed perfect worldview. When Jesus said that the truth will
    make us free, he was telling us that we must look beyond our personal
    worldviews for that truth. It all becomes a journey of faith that is known
    as the Jesus movement. This implies that God has limited God's continuing
    influence to access through our use of free will. We must choose to believe
    in God. We must choose to believe in the existence of true free will. We
    become God-referencing creatures for moral truth.

    Now, since we all start with self-referencing, all religions and science
    will influence the formation of personal worldviews. Choice for what to
    believe by any individual has expanded to a chaotic level for many
    individuals. Trust in all sources of authority is low. We are ripe for a
    major shift from forced change to intentional change. All dogmatism must be
    set aside. We must intentionally create non-threatening environments for
    open discussion. This ASA listserve should encourage such an atmosphere,
    even when we read apparently outlandish claims. We all have been
    conditioned to defend our worldviews and attack any perceived threat. Only
    intentional change by the individual can change the worldview of that
    individual. The reference standard that each of us use will remain a
    choice. We can only help each other choose by sharing without judgment.

    Enough said. May God guide all of you as you share your worldviews with
    others.

    James W. Stark



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