on 9/2/01 11:25 PM, D. F. Siemens, Jr. at dfsiemensjr@juno.com wrote:
>
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:05:03 -0400 James W Stark <stark2301@voyager.net>
> writes: I am resending this note as a request for a new thread on
mathematical truth.
>
>> on 8/31/01 3:21 AM, psiigii at psiigii@home.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> Thank you, James! God did not create mathematics, nor did He create
>>>>>physics.
>>>>>
>>> OK! Why not? In my worldview reality consists of a physical universe
>>> (matter), a mental world, (our awareness of the laws of mathematics as well
>>> as any subject matter.), and the spiritual realm (known to us through our
>>> consciousness.)
>>>
>>> Humans only use mathematics and physics. Who or what created the laws used
>>> in these areas, if it was not God?
>>>
Siemens responds
> If God created mathematics, which ones among the various alternatives? Integer
> arithmetic, real numbers, imaginary numbers, mixed numbers (and the
> sophisticated analytical ways to handle the latter), infinite numbers, modular
> numbers (in infinite variety). Absolute geometry, Euclidean, Lobachevskian,
> Riemannian, analytic, and various extensions in terms of dimensions and
> techniques, etc. Newton's fluxions, Maclaurin's redoing these as geometric
> theorems, differential calculus, integrals, partial differentials, and a
> variety of more sophiticated versions. What is provably true in some of these
> is provably false in others. And Goedel and others have proved that there
> unprovables. Is the deity behind this confusion, along with complexity theory
> (aka deterministic chaos)? On what basis can you render a decision of divine
> involvement?
Stark's reply
Thanks for the response, but: Describing the complexity of mathematics is
irrelevant to its creative source. Humans can discover the existence of
mathematical relationships. To me, our brains do not create them.
However, Lucy Masters (9-3-01) seems to have some convictions along this
line. How might mathematics be wired into our brains so that they are so
universal? The laws apply to all humans who use or discover them. The only
justification that I can see for the creation of such laws is God as the
creator.
>
> I understand that there are a few primitive tribes whose number system
> consists of one, two, many, which seems to be echoed on our comparison of
> adjectives. The biggest number in the ancient Greek vocabulary was myriad,
> 10,000, though the genius of Archimedes came up with myriads of myriads. The
> largest number written in Roman numerals is a few million. We have regular
> names up to vigintillion, which is larger than the multipliers scientists use,
> though there is no absolute limit. We also have the irregularly named googol
> and googolplex. Which is God's level? Or is this a matter of progressive
> revelation?
Stark's reply
We give names to the various laws or mathematical concepts. God is the
creator of all levels of mathematics that we discover. I suppose we could
interpret discovery of mathematical laws as a kind of revelation. What
would it accomplish?
I can see no predictable relationship of mathematics to truth in reality.
There is a truth of mathematics in that it has consistent laws. Perhaps,
Lucy Master's suggestion on 9-3-01 to read "Where Mathematics
Comes From: How the Embodied Mind Brings Mathematics Into Being" by
Lakoff and Nunez is a good starting point to explore more a meaningful
response to my query.
>
> Was it Weyl who said, "God made the integers and man made all the rest"? Will
> this be a way out? If so, why? How do you justify the claim? Math seems very
> different than matter (mass-energy), which is not illusory. The notion that
> E=mc^2 makes matter illusory is a delusion. Dave
Stark's reply
To you it may be a delusion, but to Bernard Haisch, Alfonso Rueda & H.E.
Puthoff it is a subject of intense interest. I am just trying to estimate
truth. Zero-point field research by physicists may reveal some interesting
truths.
>
>>>>> God created matter.
>>>>>
>>> Or should we say energy rather than matter? Einstein's discovery of E = mc2
>>> can be interpreted to imply how much energy is required to give the
>>> appearance of a certain amount of mass, which suggests that matter is an
>>> illusion. Did God create matter an illusion? Eastern religions start
>>> creation with illusion, while Christianity starts with truth.
>>>
>>> How ought we feel about mathematics not always estimating truth?
>>>
>>> James Stark
>>>
>>>
>>>>> "Physics" is just man's feeble attempt to grasp the true essence of the
>>>>> matter God created. Mathematics is just the language man uses in these
>>>>> attempts. As man's insights into the true nature of "material world"
>>>>> grows, the mathematical "language" we employ to conceptualize/formalize
>>>>> our insights-- which, BTW, may still not be the true essence--has evolved
>>>>> to this end. In the end, however, physics is still man's attempt to
>>>>> understand, and mathematics is still just man's language to verbalize our
>>>>> understanding (again, not necessarily being the truth). Both are man's
>>>>> creations, not God's.
Stark's reply
There are laws that govern physics and mathematics. We only use them. I
see no way that humans could possibly be the creators of those laws.
>>>>>
>>> Howard Meyer
<Large snip>
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