Hello Glenn:
I received 2 E-mails from you this afternoon, after returning from 3 days
of field work in the Grand Canyon. I'm not sure what the asa@calvin.edu
address is, but I assume that you are sending in a "Letter" reply in
Perspectives to my article on Noah in the March Perspectives from your last
statement "Lest anyone criticize me for making this criticism publically, I
did e-mail Ms. Hill privately last week, but got no reply." You sent the
first E-mail off Friday (16th) and this one on Monday (19th) - do you
consider 3 days long enough for someone to reply to you?
I'm attaching both letters of yours and will reply briefly to them.
However, I do NOT want to reply to Glenn Morton's Letter criticism in
Perspectives, whoever is at the asa@calvin.edu end of things.
LETTER #1 FROM GLENN MORTON TO CAROL HILL
Subj: Your article
Date: 3/16/01 2:40:25 PM Mountain Standard Time
From: glenn.morton@btinternet.com (Glenn Morton)
To: carolannhill@cs.com
Hello,
I just read your article and enjoyed it. Thanks for the citation, even
though what you said was negative about my views. There are a few things I
think I should point out to you in relation to your article and the
archeological record. It is these things that made me go the direction I
went with my views. Yes, I may be wrong, but I know beyond a shadow of a
doubt that the flood could not have been in the Mesopotamian basin as surely
as I know that the sun won't rise in the west. Your article really didn't
say much about the total lack of evidence for a big flood in the
Mesopotamian region--the lack of a widespread geological deposit, the fact
that the big cities show absolutely no discontinuity during the period they
were supposed to have been flooded, the fact that if Noah was in southern
Mesopotamia, his ark could not possibly have floated uphill against the
current to land in Turkey. see
http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/mflood.htm
In criticizing my article, you write: "First, the Bible says that Noah lived
in Mesopotamia, not in the Mediterranean area." (p. 38) Would you be so
kind as to point that verse out to me. Somehow, I seem to have never seen it
in my Bible. All I am looking for is a simple statement that Noah lived in
such and such a town, which town lies in Mesopotamia. Thank you in advance
for this. But if you can't point this simple statement out, then it must
rest on some line of deduction, or upon assumption. If it is an assumption,
then is not your theory merely assuming what it intends to prove?
Concerning the Archaeology, You wrote: "The word 'father' in verses 20 and
21 of the King James Version implies that Jabal and Jubal were the first to
practice these occupations in Mesopotamia." p. 25
Why must this follow from anything in the Bible? Archaeology doesn't support
the invention of the pipe as late as you have it being invented. In fact,
pipes go back nearly 100,000 years into human history. That is, pipes made
of bone which is archeologically preservable. Wooden flutes must have
existed long prior to the earliest bone flute. Whoever made that original
wooden flute was the father of the pipes, not some guy who lived 5,000 years
ago. I would suggest that you take a look at
http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/music.htm for all the references
you could possibly want. As to the harp, it is correct that the oldest known
depictions of them come from mesopamia, it is not at all clear that they
were invented that late in the world. Mankind has been making cordage for a
long, long time. The oldest evidence for cordage is from 27,000 years ago at
Dolni Vestonice. But there are statues with cords depicted on the people
from earlier times. And there is evidence that cord was used to attach stone
tools to javelin shafts even longer ago. (Robert G. Bednarik, "Lower
Palaeolithic Hafting Evidence," THe Artefact, 19(1996), p. 99). To claim
that the harp, a stringed instrument was an invention by people only 5000
years ago, must implicitly claim that no one in the previous 30,000 years
had ever noticed that strings make sound when accidentally plucked. I find
that assumption rather weak.
On page 25 you state that sheep and goats were domesticated around
Mesopotamia ~6500 BC This is not correct. Domestication of the sheep may
have been as early as 11,000 years ago:
"Sheep and goats, whose role would become essential in the peopling of the
middle Mediterranean area, were domesticated in the Near East. The sheep
is, at first, a victim of a selective hunting process, for example, at Zawi
Chemi at the foot of the Zagros, where a possible domestication as early as
9000 B. C. is postulated. " ~ Jean Guilaine, "The First Farmers of the Old
World," in Jean Guilaine, editor, Prehistory: The World of Early Man, (New
York: Facts on File, 1986), p. 82
Sheep herding was very widespread prior to the time that you say that Jabal
is really the father. Also, you ignore the statement that Jabal is the
father of those who live in tents. Mankind has been living in tents for
over 400,000 years and maybe as long ago as 1.6 million years. If so, in
what sense can Jabal be the father of tent-livers? Several examples:
40,000 years ago:
"Thus, at Arcy-sur-Cure, protected by the overhang of the Cave of the
Reindeer, the Chatelperronians built and rebuilt circular huts three meters
in diameter, with a floor of flat stones, over the course of at least 5,000
years. Part of the framework of these huts might have consisted of mammoth
tusks set in holes, and the roof might have been made of skins or bark, flat
stones or lumps of soil. These dwellings are different from those of
prehistoric Russia and the Ukraine--true pit houses whose construction
required skeletal parts of almost 150 mammoths." ~ Andre Leroi Gourhan, The
Hunters of Prehistory, transl. Claire Jacobson, (New York: Atheneum, 1989),
p. 131
400,000 years ago HOMO ERECTUS:
"The home base of early man from Bilzingsleben was situated on a shore
terrace close to the outflow of a karst spring into a small lake. Previous
excavations revealed a division of the camp site into different activity
areas and outlines of three simple shelters with hearths and workshops set
up in front of them. Five to 8 m from the dwelling structures, an
artificially paved area with a diameter of 9 m was found. According to the
archaeological evidence, special cultural activities may have been carried
out there.
"Along with large pebble tools( choppers, chopping tools, and
hammerstones), small specialized tools of flint appear. Basic standard
forms are knives, scrappers, denticulates and notches, simple points which
are pointed-oval, Tayac and Quinson points, borers, and core-like tools.
Edge retouches predominate, but also unifacial and bifacial retouches occur.
Large scrapers, knives, chisel-shaped tools, wedges, bodkins, and work
supports were manufactured from the compact bone, preferably of the
straight-tusked elephant. Mattock- and cudgel-shaped tools were made from
cervid antlers. Specific, deliberate manufacturing activities are
recognizable in the workshops. Apart from the dissection of the animal
prey, these tools served for the working of predominantly organic materials
which in turn were used for the manufacture of other tools and objects of
daily use. Wood was also a frequently used raw material. Numerous
calcified remains of wood artifacts were found at the site. Some bone tools
display deliberately engraved sets of lines which we regard as expressions
of abstract thinking, perhaps as graphic symbols." ~ D. Mania and U. Mania
and E. Vlcek, "Latest Finds of Skull Remains of Homo erectus from
Bilzingsleben (Thuringia)", Naturwissenschaften, 81(1994), p. 123-127, p.
124
And Mary Leakey found the controversial remains of a tent dated 1.6 million
years ago. It seems to me that you are picking and choosing the items you
want to fit within your theory and ignoring things like the existence of
pipes and tents long before Sumer.
On page 29 you write: "Clay sickles are a common artifact of early (Uruk)
Mesopotamian agricultural sites, but by Jemdet Nasr time, chert-bladed
sickles hafted with bitumen were also being used. " (p. 29).
Such sickles were used long, long prior to Jemdet Nasr time.
early Neolithic Jordan Valley, 10,500-9300 bp
"Its assemblages are characterized by arrowheads ('Khiam' points), a
proliferation of perforators, a decrease in the frequencies of microliths,
and the presence of bitumen-hafted sickle blades." ~ Ofer Bar-Yosef and
Mordechai E. Kislev, "Early Farming Communities in the Jordan Valley," in
David R. Harris and Gordon C. Hillman, Foraging and Farming, (London: Unwin
Hyman, 1989), p. 634
On page 30, you write:
"Urban civilization first arose in southern Mesopotamia around 3400 B.C.,
expanding in late Uruk and Jemdet Nasr time." (p. 30)
This is simply false. Urban life, with cities and city walls arose much
before that and not in Mesopotamia.
"Excavations at ancient Jericho, identified as Tell al Sultan, 10 km (6 mi)
north of the Dead Sea in Israeli?occupied Jordan, have revealed remains of
the oldest city yet discovered by archaeologists. The earliest occupation
of the site, dating from the 10th millennium BC, consists of remains of the
NATUFIAN culture and includes what may have been a shrine. During the 8th
millennium BC the site was greatly expanded under a culture known as the
Aceramic, or Prepottery Neolithic A, and a wall standing 5.2 m (17 ft) high
was erected around the settlement. On the west side were found remains of
a round tower that stood 7 m (23 ft) high and included an internal flight
of steps."1992 Software Toolworks Online Encyclopedia.
THere were also other sites:
"At Mallaha (Eynan) in Palestine, in the 10th millennium, a cluster of round
cabins -- 10 to 13 feet (three to four meters) in diameter on the average
and sometimes up to 30 feet (9 meters)-- was planned. These houses were dug
in pits, and their periphery was surrounded by stone walls. At Mureybet
(Syria), in the 10th millennium, circular habitations dug into the ground
were constructed, limited by low walls of argil and wood, and covered by a
thick coating. The preference for circular houses would be maintained even
in the beginning of the Neolithic. In the course of the ninth millennium,
Jericho (in Jordan), already occupied by the Natufian, enlarged the town in
association with a development beyond that which was customary for stone
architecture. A high wall, 10 feet (3 meters) thick and 13 feet (4 meters)
high, could extend out to 26 feet (8 meters), while an imposing tower (33
feet/10 meters wide at its base and 30 feet/9 meters high) contained an
interior staircase." ~ Jean Guilaine, "The First Farmers of the Old World,"
in Jean Guilaine, editor, Prehistory: The World of Early Man, (New York:
Facts on File, 1986), p. 80-81
This was an urban city. Only cities built walls.
On page 38 you erroneously write:
"The geological flooding of the Mediterranean basin with seawater happened
in Late Miocene time. Not even hominids existed in the late Miocene
(~10-6million years ago), let alone a man who had the technology to build a
boat the size of the ark."
Once again, you are wrong. It is a shame that you neither know the time of
the infilling of the Mediterranean, nor the reason for the definition of the
Pliocene, nor the anthropology necessary to make the erroneous claim that
you make here. First, the infilling of the Mediterranean exactly marks the
Mio-Pliocene boundary. Lyell was the one who used the change in fauna at
that point to mark the boundary. The boundary is NOT 10 million years ago
it is not 6 million years ago, but is 5.5 million years ago.
And as to hominids existing, you need to read more anthro. Consider
Lothagam.
"Until recently, hominids older than 4 million years were limited to less
than a half-dozen specimens. These specimens include a right mandible
fragment with a first molar found in the site of Lothagam, in northern
Kenya, and dated to approximtely 5 to 6 million years ago. Although its
anatomy is consistent with placement in the family Hominidae, the
fragmentary nature of the Lothagam specimen makes assignment to genus or
species impossible. A proximal humerus from Lake Baringo, Kenya, dated to
approximately 4.2 million years ago, shares morphological similarities with
Australopithecus africanus." ~ Donald Johanson and Blake Edgar, From Lucy to
Language, (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1997), p. 39-40
And very recently, Millennium man has been found and he dates to 6 million
years ago and is more modern than the australopithecines.
"Dr Brigitte Senut emerged triumphantly from a corner of a ramshackle office
in Paris's Natural History Museum brandishing a bone. "This is what it's
about," she says, as her colleague, Dr Martin Pickford, nods
enthusiastically.
"Here is a replica of the femur of the creature we are calling Millennium
Ancestor. It is around 6 million years old; the oldest discovery to date.
Yet this bone is closer to a human thigh bone than femurs that are 2.5
million years younger.
"The creature to whom this belonged appears to be both more ancient and yet
more human than previous findings. It can provide a new key to our prehuman
origins."
http://www.smh.com.au/news/0102/06/features/features1.html
You also make the statement that betrays your lack of study in archaeology
when you write:
"And could prehistoric humans--barely out of the Stone Age--have constructed
a boat the size of the ark? With what--stone tools? Boy, do you need to
study ancient boatmaking. First off, the stone age Hawaiians, who NEVER left
the stone age because they had NO metals at all, built ocean going vessels
that were actually larger than the iron-tool-built boats of Captain Cook.
"The boats used by Polynesians when James Cook encountered them were marvels
of craftsmanship. The Polynesians manufactured multi-hulled, multi-plank
boats, propelled by paddles and sails and they were extremely fast. Some
Tahitian canoes were 65 feet long, longer than many power cruisers. One
canoe that Captain Cook saw was longer than his own ship. Polynesian ships
were all made with stone-age tools." G. R. Morton Adam, Apes and
Anthropology, DMD publishing 1997, p. 139 reference: John R. Whiting,"Boat
and Boating" The Software Toolworks Encyclopedia, 1992 Ed. version 1.5.
Text Copyright Grolier Inc. 1992
The earliest planed and polished piece of wood is dated between 240-780,000
years (a time of Homo erectus) who obviously had skill with woodworking. (S.
Belitszky et al, "A Middle Pleistocene Wooden Plank with man?made Polish,"
Journal of Human Evolution, 1991, 20:349?353.)
There is microscopic wear evidence on stone tools of woodworking going back
1.6 million years. Homo erectus manufactured a javelin balanced just like a
modern olympic javelin and he did it with stone tools. What is the problem
with building a boat with stone tools, which many primitive cultures still
do today_-ocean going vessels made of wood!
And Homo erectus first crossed the ocean (8 different straits to get to the
island of Flores (which 8 straits were never connected to the Asian mainland
during lowered sea levels) and this implies that he built some kind of boat.
(M. J. Morwood, et al., "Fission-track ages of Stone Tools and Fossils on
the East Indonesian Island of Flores," Nature ,392:173-176), and the ancient
polynesians first occupied the Pacific with boats built with stone age
tools.
YOu really need to do some homework before you condemn that which you
haven't studied. If I place the story in mythology, your view makes it
unbelievable. How did the ark float to Turkey against the current of a
flood? Why didn't it land in the Indian ocean which is where the current was
going? Why is there no evidence in the form of disrupted civilization of a
flood of more than normal proportions?
glenn
see http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/dmd.htm
for lots of creation/evolution information
anthropology/geology/paleontology/theology\
personal stories of struggle
LETTER #2 FROM GLENN MORTON TO CAROL HILL
Subj: Carol Hill's article
Date: 3/19/01 1:59:17 PM Mountain Standard Time
From: glenn.morton@btinternet.com (Glenn Morton)
To: asa@calvin.edu (Asa@Calvin. Edu)
CC: carolannhill@cs.com
Carol Hill's article
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