I wrote:
>>* perhaps we should understand this "death" as the separation of humanity from perfect
>> fellowship with God the Creator - a fellowship which humans themselves
>> were absolutely powerless to restore. So it is a spiritual death - left
>> to ourselves we are "dead in our sins"*.
To which George responded
>The belief that the first humans were in "perfect fellowship with God the Creator" is highly >problematic. There is no theological reason to accept it, and if we do so, evolution will always >be something of a foreign element in our theology, however much we may be willing to accept >it as a scientific theory. This is part of an essentially static world view which simply >contradicts what we know about the general character of God's whole creation. & it doesn't >help to say that things evolved up to the point where humans emerged. In fact, by suggesting >that all the rest of creation & cosmic history has been here only as a kind of launching pad for >humanity, it leads to a devaluation of the non-human creation.
> IMO it is much better to understand humanity, having been created by God through >evolutionary processes, to have the potential to develop (again through divine cooperation) >toward such fellowship. Where perfect fellowship of humanity (& the rest of creation) with >God the Creator occurs is in the Incarnation, which should not be seen as God's "Plan B" but as >the plan for creation from the beginning (Eph.1:10).
> Again I would point out the general view of the Eastern Church, that humanity was not >created perfect but in an immature state. While this is of course not an "evolutionary" view in >the modern sense, it is open to evolutionary theories in the way that the western idea of >humanity created in a state of static perfection (with all the totally unbiblical speculations about >A&E's beauty, wisdom, physical abilities &c) is not.
So now I have some questions:
Why are the first 11 chapters of Genesis included in Holy Writ? In particular what should we understand about the scriptures recorded in Genesis 1, 2 and 3? Do the creation stories, and the fall story teach us anything at all? Presumably, (and I agree here) they do not teach us about the actual particular events that took place to get the universe to its present condition. That is, these stories do not record "literal history" in the sense that we could have captured it on a video camera. But what is the meaning of the repetitive "and God saw that it was good" recorded in Gen. 1? Was there ever a time when the creation really was "good" in and of itself? - a goodness which did not, evidently, depend on the presence of humans - but continued to be good even after the creation (appearance) of humans? If so what was the quality of this goodness? Does it include some measure of harmony among creatures and between the Creator and His creation? Or is it sheer poppycock to think of the creation story in these term
s? If sheer poppycock, then why are these stories included in the Canon?
And did sin enter the world by the volitional act or acts of humans as told in Gen. 3? If so then at some time there must have been a "sinless world" prior to this (these) act(s). If there were such a sinless world, would it be wrong to speak of the existence of a "perfect communion" between the Creator and His creation, protean though the creation may have been at this stage, and "immature" though the humans may have been? If it is wrong to speak of "original sin" in this way, then it seems hard to understand any need for atonement by the sacrifice of Jesus. While, I do not think that the incarnation was a sort of Plan B, it also seems the clear teaching of all of scripture that sin entered the world through human behavior, that we are entirely accountable for our sin to God, and that we are incapable on our own of ever atoning for our sin.
Further, is it clear that the quality of the fellowship that Christ had (has) with the Father, is the same quality of fellowship with the Father that we creatures might have in a sinless world? After all Jesus Christ was both God and man. Does it seen likely that we creatures might ever aspire to the kind of fellowship with the Father that Jesus had (has)? Would ours not be a different quality of fellowship - that between Creator and creature?
Any enlightenment on these matters will be greatly appreciated.
kpiers
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