He continued:
-------------------------
Actually, Burgy, what I find so sad is the conflict I know exists in
them.
I felt that conflict for many years before I finally gave up on YEC. As
a
YEC one wonders why God didn't do things in a way that would make it more
evident that the earth is young. Everyone wants to be thought of as an
intelligent individual, yet one knows deep down that there are some
pretty
weird people on your side of the issue and you are arguing against the
weirdos as well as the the evolutionists. The more intelligent YECs like
Nelson and Reynolds, KNOW that they are often lumped into the same class
as
Walter Brown or Gerardus de Bouw who believes in a heliocentric universe
or
Carl Baugh ...
----------------------
An interesting point. I had not thought of it that way.
Glen continued:
----------------------------
I amend my statement to "very sad". It is no longer the saddest
statement--some of mine might have been sadder.
-------------------------------
Fair enough. Likewise.
I said:
>As you know, I am not a YEC; never have been, although at one time I did
>consider part of that claim, at least, as a viable option. But I see no
>reason they, and their successors, should not continue to try to support
>it as long as they wish to. It is their call.
Glenn replied:
-------------------------------------
Sure then can call it and they are calling it. But I have a right and
maybe a duty to raise the question of how long is enough. They personally
only have about 70 years or so.
------------------------------------
You and I must differ on that one, Glenn. Sure you can raise the issue.
But they
are not likely to pay you any attention. I'll bet the issue is still
around 100 years from now!
Glenn continued:
--------------------------------------
Maybe I am harsh here The 'this' in the above sentence refers to the
conflict between their words and actions. They say that YEC has no
evidence
yet actively argue that people should become YECs. I will amend it to
state
HIGHLY INCONSISTENT.
-------------------------------------
As long as they have a Bible interpretation to turn to, they will claim
that that is evidence, and that, therefore, they are not inconsistent.
But I will agree with you anyway (as amended).
Glenn continued:
-----------------------------------
I simply don't see how you can claim that I couldn't see beyond my
training. I may be many things, intense, argumentative, irritating and
obnoxious, not to mention hypocritical, but one thing I have proved in my
life, I could see beyond my training in becoming a YEC and then see
beyond
my YEC training in becoming a TE.
-------------------------------
Yes, true. One example, however, does not prove a whole. You know that.
When I first encountered the YEC position, it was very difficult to "see
beyond my training" to fairly examine the claims. In a sense, I had to
"believe the YEC position" to understand it. Even doing this, it never
rose (in my mind) to more than a very unlikely possibility.
Seeing beyond what one "already knows" is intensely difficult. I had an
object stolen once -- I remember just standing there -- looking -- it did
not register for several minutes.
I remember when I became a Christian. It was WAY outside everything I
"knew." It was not an "aha" experience; I was found; I did not find.
I asked Glenn:
>Here is a question for you. What makes you espouse a variation of the TE
>position so assuredly as opposed to some variation of PC? Or is PC still
>a "live option" to you? If not, would you characterize the writings of
>some PCs (me, for instance) as also being "sad?" Is TE, to you, the only
>possibility left to consider?
Glenn replied:
-----------------------------------
The reason I
espouse TE rather than PC is strictly theological. Both views predict the
same things but PC seems to require that God constantly fiddle with the
universe-always fixing things and changing things to achieve His goal.
To
me that implies that God didn't do a very good of designing a system that
could reach the goal without further intervention.
-------------------------------
For you, then, God must be omnipotent and have "done everything right and
complete" at the beginning.
I don't see him as omnipotent. For instance, he says at one time
(Jeremiah, I think) of the Israelite's activities "It never entered my
mind." There are other passages which suggest great power, but not
omnipotence.
But, even if I would concede omnipotence, and I could do that, that does
not rule out the idea of God "playing around" with his creation -- from
time to time changing things, introducing new life forms, even new
physical laws!
He did, you know, "play around" at the Cana wedding; certainly this was a
PC event. Other events can easily be cited. Given PC events HAVE taken
place, what is the problem of holding a PC, rather than a TE, position?
Theologically of course?
The passages of the OT where God "changes his mind" are legion. If all
the OT is explainable by "natural causation," and the convinced TE must
certainly hold to this, then the whole edifice collapses. If not -- then
we have a lot of PC activity going on!
Glenn, on another subject, continues:
--------------------------
... is it correct to admit that all
the evidence goes against your position but then argue that the position
is
the only one that should be believed? And when data is presented to a
person that contradicts that persons beliefs, it does border on the
irrational to ignore that evidence.
-------------------------
No argument here.
Glenn concludes:
------------------
Before you say 'Aha, another ad
hominem' I want to point out that I was irrational when a YEC. I would
not say anything about Paul, that I would not EQUALLY or EVEN IN GREATER
MEASURE say about my time as a YEC. I ignored data by the bucket load in
order to remain a YEC. I REFUSED to change in the light of new and
contradictory evidence. I distrusted scientists and believed things that
are unbelievable. If I can't relate my experiences as a YEC and my change
from a YEC and relate them to what I see other, very intelligent YECs
doing, then my experience is for nought.
---------------------
Won't say "ad hominem" to the above. And I see your experience(s) as
very valuable. I am glad you are around!
Peace. If I "disappear," and I will shortly on a grandparent mission, I
will try to be back in about a month.
Burgy
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