Re: [asa] red in tooth and claw

Hi Bernie,

Thanks for pointing this out.

I think GM might be very sympathetic to the ID perspective if not, perhaps, even YEC. I don't really know as he hasn't addressed the issue. What you should be aware of, however, is that the biblical framework of Glen's piece isn't the real reason I regard it as "brilliant". Indeed, you may well be right that it smacks of the sort of thing familiar to you from your fundamentalist past.

Rather, the "brilliant" bit is the overview of the scientific material contained in the second part of the piece <http://www.christian-thinktank.com/pred2.html>. It simply occurs to me that some people might find interesting an opportunity to assess, in some objective way, the question of "just how much suffering is there in the animal kingdom, really?"

Blessings,
Murray

> Murray said:
> "Glen Miller, at the Christian Think Tank, has a BRILLIANT series on predation in nature which is really a "must read" in my opinion. The main page for the series is here;
> http://www.christian-thinktank.com/predator.html"
>
> RE: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/predator.html
> Excerpt:
> "Genesis 2-3 show that humanity and animals existed in apparent cooperation and harmony at some point in the past, and that animals were in the Garden. Humanity and the animals were apparently herbivorous at the time (but not necessarily exclusively so--they might have eaten insects or even occasional meat, but the bible seems to indicate that they were mainly plant-eating at the time (1.29-30)),..."
>
> It is fundamentalist nonsense at the root (tigers and alligators were vegetarians before the fall). If evolution (or even old earth creationism) is factored into theology, then this explanation is nonsense. It is fundamentalist YEC. This would only be a "must read" for people who don't know if evolution is true or not. For those who are convinced of evolution, like Francis Collins and Denis Lamoureux, it is nonsense.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 7:34 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: Re: [asa] red in tooth and claw
>
> Glen Miller, at the Christian Think Tank, has a BRILLIANT series on predation in nature which is really a "must read" in my opinion.
>
> The main page for the series is here;
>
> http://www.christian-thinktank.com/predator.html
>
> Which has the sub-links to the most comprehensive treatment of suffering in nature I have ever come across.
>
> It is beyond superlatives and puts the "nature red in tooth and claw" idea well and truly in perspective.
>
> Blessings,
> Murray
>
>
>> What if nature isn't actually as brutal as we take it to be? And really,
>> of all the religions that could or should cringe because of any
>> 'brutality' we project upon nature - and a lot of it is projection -
>> doesn't it seem odd for Christians to do it? The religion with the
>> incarnate God who was betrayed, tormented, and executed? Isn't ours the
>> one religion, regardless of particular sect, which makes it abundantly
>> clear that one should not judge a reality by its incomplete history?
>>
>> The one lesson I take from Christ's death and resurrection is that it's
>> a drastic mistake to regard torment and death as the final lesson in
>> history, whether it be human history or the greater, natural history.
>> And the idea that Hitler's eugenics was in any way a correct reflection
>> of evolution as we know it - particularly given what we've learned since
>> then - seems dramatically naive.
>>
>> Count me in the apparent minority of Christians who don't think the
>> habits of the natural world pose a problem for our theology, and in fact
>> bolsters it. The problem isn't the facts on the ground, but the perspective.
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 9:57 PM, David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com
>> <mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> >Sculptured indeed! Well-stated, Bernie. You are exactly right that
>> this is something for Christians to struggle with, and I wish I had
>> a complete answer.
>>
>>
>> People say Christianity is brutal and bloody. And God is a mean
>> inhumane jerk for acts like slaying an entire enemy army in one night.
>>
>> Well, why then do they think evolution is kinder and gentler? The
>> bloodiness and brutality of Christianity is a matchstick in a
>> firestorm compared to the competition in biology.
>>
>> What about te ideal of the lion laying down with the lamb? What if
>> nature is brutal because it is corrupted by the rebellious? And God
>> would have it be different?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Merv Bitikofer <mrb22667@kansas.net
>> <mailto:mrb22667@kansas.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>
>>
>> However, and I had glimpses of this as a Christian even, I
>> think the 'red in tooth and claw' is a tremendous
>> acknowledgement of how evolution works. The ruthlessness of
>> nature, even Hitler eugenic-style thinking, is how evolution
>> created the wonderful life forms that we witness today.
>> Nature/evolution isn't just 'red in tooth and claw' as some
>> unfortunate thing, but it is the way life is SCULPTURED.
>> Life is SCULPTED by evolution by "tooth and claw."
>>
>> I'm not saying Hitler and eugenics are right. I'm saying
>> that the ruthless nature of evolution being 'red in tooth
>> and claw' is a major component for getting life as beautiful
>> as we know it today.
>>
>> For example, why are so few creatures born blind? Because
>> they quickly get eaten, with not much chance of their genes
>> being passed on. Same thing with many other defects.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Sculptured indeed! Well-stated, Bernie. You are exactly right
>> that this is something for Christians to struggle with, and I
>> wish I had a complete answer. But I do have part of an answer
>> that is of course, unavailable to you at the moment. And that
>> involves God's use of suffering to craft us. Christians have
>> long lived with the paradox of accepting suffering, yet while
>> praying to be delivered from it. None of us wants it, by
>> definition, and yet we realize (usually only in retrospect) that
>> we were made stronger for having gone through it. This is only
>> the human element and makes no pretension of addressing all of
>> nature. But if I was to begin to craft an answer, I would start
>> with the incarnate Christ entering into humanity, indeed, into
>> nature. George Murphy's book "Cosmos in the Light of the Cross"
>> is helpful in this regard.
>>
>> By the way, you seem to want to remain morally above things like
>> eugenics or the whole "tooth & claw" scenario. If these things
>> are but the brutal tools that sculpted beauty (according to
>> you), then why do you find them so objectionable? On what basis
>> do you object? You'll note that I object to them too even while
>> I acknowledge their existence. Christ calls me to live above any
>> such natural law and to reject "survival of the fittest" as a
>> means of living with my neighbor. But you have rejected Christ,
>> and that basis is not available to you (unless you want to
>> engage in the irrational practice of cherry picking things you
>> like about Christ's teachings while yet thinking Him and his
>> disciples as deluded fools or power-hungry frauds.) Since you no
>> longer have the Christian basis available and yet regard
>> Evolutionary wisdom as a kind of guiding light, on what rational
>> basis do you wish to continue objecting to nature's enlightened
>> evolutionary teeth & claws whether they come in the form of
>> eugenics or otherwise? Do you not quite trust the capable hands
>> of evolution to do what needs to be done?
>>
>> --Merv
>>
>>
>> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
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>> Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Sun Nov 29 15:28:56 2009